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Hi,
I was going to cast the net wider and ask what your favourite Rózsa re-recordings are, but then I decided to narrow things down a bit. First, an admission about myself that some may already know... I'm not really a "rabid" soundtrack collector, even for the works of my favourite composers. I have only forty Jerry Goldsmith scores - but enough of starting off on the defensive...
I'll blurt it out - I have neither the Tadlow EL CID nor their PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. But I do have the Broughton-conducted Intrada releases of IVANHOE and JULIUS CAESAR, both of which I adore. Everything just seems about right to me as regards the recording and the performance. They both hit the spot precisely, although it would be strange indeed if everyone felt the same way...
Sooooo.... to get to the point.... for those who have heard Rózsa done by Bruce Broughton and by Nic Raine, would you say that there's a noticeable difference in the general "feel"? I'm putting that in inverted commas, because it is a very airy-fairy question. Or, in other words, if one loves the results of the Tadlow, would they have a pretty good chance of being equally impressed by the Intrada and vice-versa?
Congratulations if you have already guessed why I'm asking.
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2014 - 9:59 AM
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By: |
JamesFitz
(Member)
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Hi,
I was going to cast the net wider and ask what your favourite Rózsa re-recordings are, but then I decided to narrow things down a bit. First, an admission about myself that some may already know... I'm not really a "rabid" soundtrack collector, even for the works of my favourite composers. I have only forty Jerry Goldsmith scores - but enough of starting off on the defensive...
I'll blurt it out - I have neither the Tadlow EL CID nor their PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. But I do have the Broughton-conducted Intrada releases of IVANHOE and JULIUS CAESAR, both of which I adore. Everything just seems about right to me as regards the recording and the performance. They both hit the spot precisely, although it would be strange indeed if everyone felt the same way...
Sooooo.... to get to the point.... for those who have heard Rózsa done by Bruce Broughton and by Nic Raine, would you say that there's a noticeable difference in the general "feel"? I'm putting that in inverted commas, because it is a very airy-fairy question. Or, in other words, if one loves the results of the Tadlow, would they have a pretty good chance of being equally impressed by the Intrada and vice-versa?
Congratulations if you have already guessed why I'm asking.
Well both the Intrada Recordings and the Tadlow Music ones are amongst the best ever recorded CDs of film music.... but then I am biased!!!
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2014 - 10:08 AM
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By: |
Bailey
(Member)
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Hi,
I was going to cast the net wider and ask what your favourite Rózsa re-recordings are, but then I decided to narrow things down a bit. First, an admission about myself that some may already know... I'm not really a "rabid" soundtrack collector, even for the works of my favourite composers. I have only forty Jerry Goldsmith scores - but enough of starting off on the defensive...
I'll blurt it out - I have neither the Tadlow EL CID nor their PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. But I do have the Broughton-conducted Intrada releases of IVANHOE and JULIUS CAESAR, both of which I adore. Everything just seems about right to me as regards the recording and the performance. They both hit the spot precisely, although it would be strange indeed if everyone felt the same way...
Sooooo.... to get to the point.... for those who have heard Rózsa done by Bruce Broughton and by Nic Raine, would you say that there's a noticeable difference in the general "feel"? I'm putting that in inverted commas, because it is a very airy-fairy question. Or, in other words, if one loves the results of the Tadlow, would they have a pretty good chance of being equally impressed by the Intrada and vice-versa?
Congratulations if you have already guessed why I'm asking.
Bias aside, Mr. Fitz is correct--these are first-class recordings and I turn to them often. Although I have the correct appreciation for the original scores, I love hearing these materworks recorded with sizable orchestral forces and in glorious modern sound.
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I think there's sometimes a smidgeon of prejudice in these circles.
Now I like all these recordings, the Broughton and Tadlow releases. You tend to hear criticism here sometimes of how the Prague ensemble USED to sound, maybe a coupla' decades ago, and some avoid them unjustly without hearing the product. They've really hit the swing of these things nowadays, and are top notch.
People just assume the Intrada peformances of 'Julius Caesar' and 'Ivanhoe' will automatically be better because it's the Sinfonia of London. But they're no closer to the mark than Tadlow these days. They are good, mind you, but if Bruce and the Sinfonia hit a sluggish patch in a piece it'll be overlooked far more than if the Prague people ever do, which is unfair.
By the way, I hope you have the Intrada 'Spellbound' and 'Red House'? They're reallly very fine. Orchestras improve, as do recording techniques. Tribute's releases are praised more than Marco Polo's were with the same team.
I don't expect a re-recording to mirror the OST. Only what's on the scoresheets is authoritative really. Intrada pulled off 'Julius Caesar' just a teensy bit better than they did 'Ivanhoe', yet they're both excellent. The Tadlow QV is brill, and the El Cid, and Lucie Svehlova's really sensitive and bold with the Sherlock Holmes violin bits, where the playing is a little muddier than the other two Tadlows orchestrally, but IT'S STILL GOOD.
They're hoaning their edge on Tiomkin and Goldsmith these days, and getting it right. If they can get those two gents right, they can get anything right.
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Hi all - I'm posting on this thread because my initial intention was to try to get some feelers about whether or not the Tadlows pleased the Intrada enthusiasts. So I'll address that issue quickly first...
Right, after all your comments, I went ahead and ordered both EL CID and THE PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. I knew I shouldn't have listened to you (joke)! They are indeed excellent. I must admit, they don't quite tingle my spine the way the Broughton re-recordings do, but they are pretty damn great for the most part. Just occasionally I'd be thinking "Hmmm, not quite sure if Rózsa would have accented that note in that way", but they are generally minor quibbles. I could mention that the organ in EL CID does sound a bit odd, but that's half a minute out of two and a half hours of a splendid set (I got the cheap 2-disc Silva reissue). As an extremely demanding old git, I'm giving them both 9 out of 10. But that is not the point of this post...
The real point of all this is to make a few observations, and ask a few concrete questions about THE PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. According to James Fitz's informative liner notes, the entire score was reconstructed and orchestrated by Nic Raine, due to the fact that the original sketches they had received were not too clear. He also mentions that Mr Raine was able to work out all the original tempi intended by the composer, just from the sketches. Then the interesting part: "This was invaluable as often when recreating a film score any original audio source material can be misleading because of time frame differentials, actual speeding up of tracks or editing and re-jigging cues to try to fit a different edit of the movie." Now, for the most part I get that, but it does lead me to believe, probably wrongly, that the Tadlow team were conscious of not being influenced by the music as heard in the film in any way. Can that be possible? Here's an old complaint which will annoy everyone - the Main Title as heard in Track 1 seems to start out fine, then races away with itself far too quickly. It doesn't sound at all right to my ears. I'm TRYING not to be influenced by the original soundtrack (or even the "Rózsa Conducts Rózsa" suite - which is quite different from the film tracks, but doesn't sound strange). Is it possible for something to sound "too fast" without a frame of reference? I'm attempting to imagine if I'd think it was too fast if I'd never heard the other versions, or the original Violin Concerto...
But here's the real REAL point of this post. I'm hearing a "wrong note" throughout. I was going to say "a different note", but I'm going for "wrong", not to be uncharitable and mean-spirited, but because it's not played like that on ANY of the other interpretations I've heard, and I'm truly interested to know why this should be the case...
I am not going to bore you all (too late, they cried) with exactly WHAT the wrong note is, because you all must know, and besides, I have no musical grounding which would help me say "it's a flat instead of a sharp" or something like that. So I'm just guessing that you know already (if not, I'll have to dig up some clips - don't make me do that)! In the violin part for Gabrielle heard throughout, in the original Concerto it's played by Jascha Heifetz hitting the same note as the subsequent recordings I've heard. Anastasia Khitruk played it that way with the Russian Philharmonic. When adapted for the film, Erich Gruenberg played it that way on the "Rózsa Conducts Rózsa" suite. And in the original soundtrack it's of course played that way too. But lovely Lucie Svehlová (is it OK to call her lovely?) plays it about "one-and-a-half notes off" (that's my personal jargon) consistently. And it's not just the lovely Lucie (whose interpretation is wonderfully warm in general). On the few occasions that it's played by the full orchestra, it's STILL... different... from everything else I've ever heard. So, what's up?
I wanted to end this thread in an interesting way, but I can't, so I'll just stress that I'm not criticising the hugely laudable efforts of the Tadlow team, I'm just really interested to know the story behind this - or if I'm the only one hearing it and thus going mad.
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It'd help if you were to elucidate WHICH note this is, and some places where it occurs.
For what you say to be true, it'd need to be a repeated and deliberate change in the manuscripts and parts throughout, which is hard to imagine. Nor could it be a badly tuned instument, because then that note would be askew EVERYWHERE.
The comments about changes in transfer rates, speeding up etc. are not inconsistent with a 'faithful' representation. You wouldn't expect all the old edits, chops, subtle (pre-digital) removals of bits of longer notes, edits of repeat bars etc., etc. to be on the scoresheets, nor to be represented in a re-recording.
For example, Rozsa's 'Double Life' orchestral suite appeared twice back in the vinyl days, on an album from AEI, and on one from a company called Sound Stage considered boot in the US. The official AEI release ('Hollywood: The Post-War Years') has the whole piece at least a semitone below the proper pitch, which not only makes it slower, but changes the very key it's written in, which isn't acceptable. That's because some transfer rate at some point was too fast, making playback too slow. The proper pitch can be gleaned from the RPO Polydor Prelude. The boot in this case had the proper pitch. If a company reconstructed the suite from the AEI they'd be up the chute. They wouldn't even be in the right key!
And in some sessions, people make reference to VHS or DVD material, and, old tapes considered, even recorded playback originally can be 'out'. So that has nothing to do with the spirit or authenticity of the performance, but needs corrected in a re-recording. To say the errors in a recording need reproduced in a re-recording is anal retentiveness for anal retentiveness's sake.
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Well both the Intrada Recordings and the Tadlow Music ones are amongst the best ever recorded CDs of film music.... but then I am biased!!!
Well, I don't have a reason to be biased and I absolutely agree. So there. :-)
I do own all of the Tadlow and all of the Intrada Rozsa re-recordings. They do not sound "the same", as there are obviously different conductors, orchestras and recording venues at work here, but all these performances nail it.
And if either label will record some more Rozsa (say, the Golden Voyage of Sindbad), I'll be in line for it. They do not sound "the same", as there are obviously different conductors, orchestras and recording venues at work here.
If you enjoy IVANHOE and JULIUS CAESAR on Intrada, you are likely to enjoy EL CID and QUO VADIS.
These scores are all in the historic-epic Rozsa mode, and the performances on all of these recordings are top notch.
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It'd help if you were to elucidate WHICH note this is, and some places where it occurs.
William, read again the first two sentences of my penultimate paragraph.
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Thanks everyone for the replies so far. By the way, the original post is from a month back, before I decided to get CID and HOLMES. So, anyone still suggesting that I'll be happy with them is correct. I am!
And to all those brave souls who ploughed through my lengthy ramble from yesterday - congratulations! I did address a few specific points which would be nice to receive more feedback on, but I'll give it a few more days... In particular, before I'm forced to go and learn how to do links and stuff like that, am I the ONLY one who hears the "different" note in question? If I am, I may as well just conclude that I'm mad, and give up.
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Posted: |
Feb 7, 2014 - 8:50 AM
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By: |
Rozsaphile
(Member)
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"Yes, Lord, you are mad. But your madness is more beautiful than the wisdom of other men." Oops, sorry! Wrong composer.
Seriously, questions like yours can be interesting, but you (all of us) have to be more precise. Many of us don't read music, and almost none of us have access to the score anyway. But we all have timers on our playback device. That capability offers unique advantages for identifying the passage(s) in question.
P.S. Isn't there a contradiction in the two sentences you cite?
I am not going to bore you all (too late, they cried) with exactly WHAT the wrong note is, because you all must know, . . . I'm just guessing that you know already
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Posted: |
Feb 7, 2014 - 8:09 PM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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Quo Vadis I can't listen to, for reasons mentioned elsewhere.
Basil, you've mentioned a couple of points where distortion ruins your enjoyment, but surely there can't be so many that you're unable to listen to the whole score. There's so much great stuff here; even the dances are gems. It'd be a shame to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
For The Red House, the Gerhardt suite still reigns supreme for me.
Strangely, I have to agree. That suite is so tight and punchy and well-played, just so right, that for all it's brevity you have the feeling you've heard the full score, such that when you do hear the full score it seems a little sprawling and repetitive. I had a similar feeling after hearing the full Taras Bulba, that Waxman had done so good a job of giving us the core of the score in 40 minutes that the full thing was by no means mandatory.
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For those interested, further to my lengthy rabbit of February 6 - well, THIS is what I was on about... The violin part, after the initial gorgeously longing introduction, begins a series of climbing statements, and on the third ascent in the mounting rapture, we get it like this -
From the Violin Concerto, the original Heifitz - crucial starting point at 0:40; note in question at 0:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypvA0fzTHC4
Violin Concerto, Russian Philharmonic - crucial starting point at 0:45; note in question around 0:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSYzo0UR6vs
Main Titles from Film - crucial starting point around 1:26; note in question about the 1:35 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw-84aza4Ag
Rózsa Conducts Rózsa Film Suite - crucial climb at 3:31; note in question at 3:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G2eEdznS2L
Tadlow Recording - crucial starting point at around 0:47; note in question about 0:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGFgt7l2eGg
Now, first off, I KNOW that the Tadlow link is a rehearsal - James Fitz himself spoke about it on another thread. It's remarkable to think that in that clip nobody had seen or heard the music before... that's why Lucie Svehlová gets a bit shaky later on and they re-did it to perfection. But I couldn't find a direct link to Tadlow's album, or even if they have sound clips up. But "the note in question" is not affected in the rehearsal, so the YouTube link will do as illustration...
ANYWAY, you tell me, is the Tadlow note a DIFFERENT ONE from all the other interpretations? I'm hearing it a few notes off throughout the Tadlow. If you've got the CD, the note in question is heard in the following tracks -
Track 1, at 2:27 on the violin.
Track 5, at 1:57 and with a larger string section.
Track 7, the "perfected" piece heard on the link, at 0:50.
Track 17, twice: at 0:41 on violin and at 2:44 with the fuller orchestra.
Track 18, at 1:35 played by the larger string section.
Track 19, twice, at 0:50 on violin, and at 3:59 with a heavier orchestration.
Track 23, at 2:30, on the violin.
I missed out on the Quartet release, and there isn't much of the film on YouTube, but on the Quartet site there are sound clips, and I THINK that what we hear there as "The End" corresponds exactly to one moment in Track 19 of the Tadlow - except for the note I'm hearing differently.
I'll leave it at that for now. This isn't a lunatic crusade or anything, it's just something that caught my attention and I'm genuinely interested in knowing the story behind it, or even if anyone else hears what I'm hearing. Or if I'm just simply mad, Over to you.
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Posted: |
Feb 9, 2014 - 4:36 AM
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By: |
JamesFitz
(Member)
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For those interested, further to my lengthy rabbit of February 6 - well, THIS is what I was on about... The violin part, after the initial gorgeously longing introduction, begins a series of climbing statements, and on the third ascent in the mounting rapture, we get it like this -
From the Violin Concerto, the original Heifitz - crucial starting point at 0:40; note in question at 0:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypvA0fzTHC4
Violin Concerto, Russian Philharmonic - crucial starting point at 0:45; note in question around 0:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSYzo0UR6vs
Main Titles from Film - crucial starting point around 1:26; note in question about the 1:35 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw-84aza4Ag
Rózsa Conducts Rózsa Film Suite - crucial climb at 3:31; note in question at 3:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G2eEdznS2L
Tadlow Recording - crucial starting point at around 0:47; note in question about 0:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGFgt7l2eGg
Now, first off, I KNOW that the Tadlow link is a rehearsal - James Fitz himself spoke about it on another thread. It's remarkable to think that in that clip nobody had seen or heard the music before... that's why Lucie Svehlová gets a bit shaky later on and they re-did it to perfection. But I couldn't find a direct link to Tadlow's album, or even if they have sound clips up. But "the note in question" is not affected in the rehearsal, so the YouTube link will do as illustration...
ANYWAY, you tell me, is the Tadlow note a DIFFERENT ONE from all the other interpretations? I'm hearing it a few notes off throughout the Tadlow. If you've got the CD, the note in question is heard in the following tracks -
Track 1, at 2:27 on the violin.
Track 5, at 1:57 and with a larger string section.
Track 7, the "perfected" piece heard on the link, at 0:50.
Track 17, twice: at 0:41 on violin and at 2:44 with the fuller orchestra.
Track 18, at 1:35 played by the larger string section.
Track 19, twice, at 0:50 on violin, and at 3:59 with a heavier orchestration.
Track 23, at 2:30, on the violin.
I missed out on the Quartet release, and there isn't much of the film on YouTube, but on the Quartet site there are sound clips, and I THINK that what we hear there as "The End" corresponds exactly to one moment in Track 19 of the Tadlow - except for the note I'm hearing differently.
I'll leave it at that for now. This isn't a lunatic crusade or anything, it's just something that caught my attention and I'm genuinely interested in knowing the story behind it, or even if anyone else hears what I'm hearing. Or if I'm just simply mad, Over to you.[/endq
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Mr Fitzpatrick, I see that you have replied to my post. I don't know if it's a glitch on my computer, but the only thing that appears is my post in its entirety as quoted by yourself in your reply. But I can't see your reply! What's up?
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Mr Fitzpatrick, I see that you have replied to my post. I don't know if it's a glitch on my computer, but the only thing that appears is my post in its entirety as quoted by yourself in your reply. But I can't see your reply! What's up?
I was going to reply....and actually started to type, but just remembered I had something important to do...so I cannot be at PC for a while...
Oh! Sounds a bit dramatic. Hope everything's OK. Anyway, looking forward to your reply when you get the chance.
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