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This is a comments thread about FSM CD: Black Sunday
 
 Posted:   Feb 9, 2010 - 12:49 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

I've been listening to it lately. I have to say, it was one I've wanted for a looong time. I've never seen the film, but I've been comparing it to the a boot that I had found a while back, and although I love how great it sounds, my only thought was in mixing.

Main Title, the cymbolum I believe it is, is nearly non-existent and the piano in some of the more dramatic dark percussive moments is mixed real low... but honestly, it's an easy fix for me so I'm not complaining.

I guess I always wonder how we can figure out what the intended mix was. I mean, Williams has always has the harps on the far left and right with few exceptions, and yet Empire Strikes Back SE has the Harp front and obnoxiously center... and certain synth additions always seem to differ from release to release...

Is there some sort of writing or information on how it was mixed or how to mix the score that you guys use when remixing the score or is it just what the preservationist feels is the closest to the original?

I find this whole process fascinating and if there were a way to be a film score preservationist full time like you all do, I'd kill for it lol... just to breath near these old recordings would make my heart stop lol

Anyway, great release! I got this and Islands in the Stream which I'm enjoying (Toootal opposites) heh... and about to order None but the Brave so yay!

Still can't wait until you guys can start doing the 90's William's Era... oooh...so many gems

 
 Posted:   Feb 9, 2010 - 2:57 PM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

The 90s Williams' era? Is there much unreleased stuff from that period?

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 9, 2010 - 3:28 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

The 90s Williams' era? Is there much unreleased stuff from that period?

No, not in terms of film scores. But there are quite a few unreleased concert works from the 90's.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 12:17 AM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

I'm talking complete scores.

Jurassic Park, Home Alone I, The Lost World, HOOK!, Schindlers List, Angela's Ashes, Episode I...

I mean, several of these have had attempts made or bootlegs and stuff, but I want honest to god complete recordings of these... Especially Lost World and Hook.

But seeing as this wasn't really what I was posting about lol...

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 12:23 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

I'm talking complete scores.

Jurassic Park, Home Alone I, The Lost World, HOOK!, Schindlers List, Angela's Ashes, Episode I...

I mean, several of these have had attempts made or bootlegs and stuff, but I want honest to god complete recordings of these... Especially Lost World and Hook.

But seeing as this wasn't really what I was posting about lol...



Ah I see now. To be honest, I have all those scores and I dont see much great need to have any expanded. I think whats on disc is a good representation of the scores. I mean, how much more Schindlers List is there that would warrant being expanded and have a market for it? And Ep1 already had a 2nd release, cant see another being much different, whether you liked it or not.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 1:48 AM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

Its not a question of like. its a question of honest releasing.

Home Alone I didn't have a lot missing, and most of it is similar to whats heard in Home Alone II, but it's a great score.

Hook needs a release. Period.

The Lost World NEEDS a release. Period.

Episode I needs a proper release. Williams wrote a great score and what we got on the 2 disc is a Ben Burtt arrangement. I get they wanted to present it how it is in the film... and because they knew it would sell because the bootleg did so well... but people want all the music. There is at least enough material to make 4 disc set out of JUST episode I... let alone a two disc for Episode II and a three for Episode III... that's how much material there is.

I'm not talking about sprinkling in pieces of cues so we can get the general feelings. Film Scores to me are amazing for their ability, over a span of several hours, to take a feeling and make it last... make it complex and change... and then move in another direction. There's intelligence...thought... love... anger... all emotions mixed in there... and I can't STAND feeling BiPolar while listening to a score and jumping around from one emotion to another to another...

Schindlers list has an amazing amount of material and honestly it would sell among any Williams fan. I mean, ask a fan "Black Sunday" or "Schindler's List" and you'd get the latter... the only ones who'd say Black Sunday would be those who got the bootleg...

I guess the better question is why release complete scores at all... if not for this reason... and if one doesn't want complete scores, then why is FSM or any of the other companies in business??

Not to say Black Sunday wasn't an amazing choice! I love it... I just am saying compared to certain 90's williams score which would be massively expencive to release right now... so I understand...

----

Back to what I asked... how do you guys know how to mix the scores? are there notes on how they mixed them?

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 3:11 AM   
 By:   Hercule Platini   (Member)

Episode I needs a proper release. Williams wrote a great score and what we got on the 2 disc is a Ben Burtt arrangement. I get they wanted to present it how it is in the film... and because they knew it would sell because the bootleg did so well... but people want all the music. There is at least enough material to make 4 disc set out of JUST episode I... let alone a two disc for Episode II and a three for Episode III... that's how much material there is.

I guess the better question is why release complete scores at all... if not for this reason... and if one doesn't want complete scores, then why is FSM or any of the other companies in business??


Because they're boring.

FOUR discs of Phantom Menace???? You have no idea how tempted I am to drop a bunch of F-bombs into the thread at the thought. That's a minimum of 225 minutes (if it won't fit on three at 75 minutes each). Scratching on the door of four hours for a score which, by any stretch, isn't anywhere close to one of Williams' best, for a film that's not only bordering on cretinous, but setting up camp there. You really want to be reminded of that wretched excuse for a runny dogturd of a film in four-hour chunks?

Anyway, it only runs 132 minutes so that's an absolute screaming MAXIMUM of 2 discs which [1] assumes that every second of the movie is scored, which it isn't, [2] allows for at least 18 minutes of alternate and unheard and unused stuff, [3] assumes that the alternate and unheard and unused stuff is actually any good, [4] is a hell of a lot more than many films get, [5] has already had two CD incarnations, and [6] is a hell of a lot more than it actually needs.

PHANTOM actually drags on one disc, albeit a 74-minute one, and that's John Towner Williams' own arrangement of his own music as he's the composer and the sole producer of the album. So not only have we already had the composer's optimum presentation of his music, we've had every last bar as it actually appears in the (rubbish) film in the Ben Burtt arrangement (that runs 124 minutes - only eight minutes less than the film's running time). And it's still not enough? You want a minimum of 105 minutes MORE of music that neither the film's composer nor the film's guiding overlord deemed worthy of inclusion? In PHANTOM F***ING MENACE? I haven't listened to CLONES recently (actually, I might later on now it's in my mind) but I certainly wouldn't say it was too short at 73 minutes. Nor is one measly 70-minute helping of REVENGE OF THE SITH (a rubbish film, but at least the bloody thing's over and finished with, and I liked the inclusion of Leia's Theme). Two discs of CLONES? Three discs of SITH?

Let's put it this way - THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is not only an immeasurably better film, but Williams' score is absolutely magnificent: brimming over with instantly memorable themes and melodies AND cracking action cues. And in all honesty that's still a drag on two discs. Four discs of THE PHANTOM MENACE???? Madness. Madness. Madness.

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 3:21 AM   
 By:   MaurizioCaschetto   (Member)

I'm sure that all three prequel scores, properly edited and sequenced as Williams originally wrote and recorded them, would easily fit on 2-discs set each.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 3:24 AM   
 By:   Rick15   (Member)



Because they're boring.

FOUR discs of Phantom Menace???? You have no idea how tempted I am to drop a bunch of F-bombs into the thread at the thought. That's a minimum of 225 minutes (if it won't fit on three at 75 minutes each). Scratching on the door of four hours for a score which, by any stretch, isn't anywhere close to one of Williams' best, for a film that's not only bordering on cretinous, but setting up camp there. You really want to be reminded of that wretched excuse for a runny dogturd of a film in four-hour chunks?

Anyway, it only runs 132 minutes so that's an absolute screaming MAXIMUM of 2 discs which [1] assumes that every second of the movie is scored, which it isn't, [2] allows for at least 18 minutes of alternate and unheard and unused stuff, [3] assumes that the alternate and unheard and unused stuff is actually any good, [4] is a hell of a lot more than many films get, [5] has already had two CD incarnations, and [6] is a hell of a lot more than it actually needs.

PHANTOM actually drags on one disc, albeit a 74-minute one, and that's John Towner Williams' own arrangement of his own music as he's the composer and the sole producer of the album. So not only have we already had the composer's optimum presentation of his music, we've had every last bar as it actually appears in the (rubbish) film in the Ben Burtt arrangement (that runs 124 minutes - only eight minutes less than the film's running time). And it's still not enough? You want a minimum of 105 minutes MORE of music that neither the film's composer nor the film's guiding overlord deemed worthy of inclusion? In PHANTOM F***ING MENACE? I haven't listened to CLONES recently (actually, I might later on now it's in my mind) but I certainly wouldn't say it was too short at 73 minutes. Nor is one measly 70-minute helping of REVENGE OF THE SITH (a rubbish film, but at least the bloody thing's over and finished with, and I liked the inclusion of Leia's Theme). Two discs of CLONES? Three discs of SITH?

Let's put it this way - THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is not only an immeasurably better film, but Williams' score is absolutely magnificent: brimming over with instantly memorable themes and melodies AND cracking action cues. And in all honesty that's still a drag on two discs. Four discs of THE PHANTOM MENACE???? Madness. Madness. Madness.


Couldn't agree more!

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 5:53 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Let's put it this way - THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is not only an immeasurably better film, but Williams' score is absolutely magnificent: brimming over with instantly memorable themes and melodies AND cracking action cues. And in all honesty that's still a drag on two discs. Four discs of THE PHANTOM MENACE???? Madness. Madness. Madness.

4 discs of ANY single work would be maddening, unless you're talking a Wagner opera cycle or something.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 6:13 AM   
 By:   CinemaScope   (Member)

How about going the other way, highlights of Star Wars & its two sequels on the one CD, it would be a good listen, I'd buy it.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 6:16 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

How about going the other way, highlights of Star Wars & its two sequels on the one CD, it would be a good listen, I'd buy it.

Not a bad idea. However, I have the STAR WARS music I need right now (the Arista box+the three separate sequel soundtracks....the 2CD PHANTOM MENACE is on my sales list).

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 1:16 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

I'm talking complete scores.

Jurassic Park, Home Alone I, The Lost World, HOOK!, Schindlers List, Angela's Ashes, Episode I...

I mean, several of these have had attempts made or bootlegs and stuff, but I want honest to god complete recordings of these... Especially Lost World and Hook.

But seeing as this wasn't really what I was posting about lol...

YOU WANT MORE HOOK???!!!!!!

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 1:16 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

I'm talking complete scores.

Jurassic Park, Home Alone I, The Lost World, HOOK!, Schindlers List, Angela's Ashes, Episode I...

I mean, several of these have had attempts made or bootlegs and stuff, but I want honest to god complete recordings of these... Especially Lost World and Hook.

...



YOU WANT MORE HOOK???!!!!!!

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 1:36 PM   
 By:   Maleficio   (Member)

I'm talking complete scores.

Jurassic Park, Home Alone I, The Lost World, HOOK!, Schindlers List, Angela's Ashes, Episode I...

I mean, several of these have had attempts made or bootlegs and stuff, but I want honest to god complete recordings of these... Especially Lost World and Hook.

...



YOU WANT MORE HOOK???!!!!!!


I guess an 1 hour plus music is not enough.

I could care less for expanded John Williams scores, the original releases are just fine.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 5:18 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

Now i know what giving an interview is like. The important and yet ultimately unanswerable quesrion is ignored while the minor side point which everyone feels they are entitles to a feeble opinion on is highlighted, quoted, argued, an intensified.

There are three cds of just score and alternates not to mention at least one disc of extras auch as concert woks and the interview that exists. 4 discs too much? Dont get goodbye mr chips, you might find yourself woefully mistaken.

And i love the utter disgust you people have. Are you not film scpre fans? Are some of you not preservationosts? Do any of you care about how the score adapts, changes, grows, is birthed, performed, and then left to unsubtle and unscrupulous hands to mold into the sonic experience we equate to a perspns life work?

This is why i dont post in forums I dont run anympre.

----


Under the minute chance that someone like Lukas sees this, i will ask again:

how do you know how to mix a long since recorded score?

Are there notes dictating what instruments should be prevelent or how the priginal mixer set up the sonic field?

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 7:31 PM   
 By:   Neil S. Bulk   (Member)

We had the multi-track on this which also had a weird, live three track, which may have been taken from the podium. This three track wasn't suitable for release but it gave an idea as to where everything was positioned.

Neil

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 7:34 PM   
 By:   Maleficio   (Member)

And i love the utter disgust you people have. Are you not film score fans? Are some of you not preservationosts? Do any of you care about how the score adapts, changes, grows, is birthed, performed, and then left to unsubtle and unscrupulous hands to mold into the sonic experience we equate to a persons life work?

I love film scores but how a score "adapts, changes, grows, is birthed, performed" is the last thing on my mind when I'm listening to music, I just want to enjoy myself.

4 hours of any Star Wars score can only be described a pure torture.

The original John Williams produced releases are perfect, and John Williams would agree.

 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 7:38 PM   
 By:   Mr. Jack   (Member)

As much as I love Bronislau Kaper's Mutiny On The Bounty score, four hours' worth of music is tough to get through, especially as a lot of the "alternate" cues are barely any different from what was actually used in the movie. A 2-CD set would have contained the entire score as heard in he film, and still have had an hour's worth of extra space for the most interesting unused/alternate cues. I mean, it's a magnificent set, and it's sort of cool that it's all there for the most obsessive of fans, but I doubt I'll ever listen to every last cue again.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2010 - 8:34 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

agreed... but when people notoriously don't take care of stuff... it makes me worry.... it's why I want whatever I can in my hands so that I know it can have a better chance of existing forever.

And thanks Neil for the answer! That's a great response. I always prefer the 3 track myself. It gives such depth but it's a great release and you guys did a remarkable job. I ljust really like the low piano and was sad it wasn't louder :-p

 
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