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 Posted:   Jan 24, 2014 - 4:34 PM   
 By:   iain   (Member)

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm a composer too, also with Horner to thank! And what a shame that people have to stop by and remind you that you're not permitted to discuss Horner unless you first address their terms.

Legends of the Fall is a beautiful score – one my favourites. I would love to see more of the manuscript. I see a change was made (to catch editing I guess): on the album bars 11 and 12 are 5/4 and 3/4 instead of both 4/4.

Aside, a long time ago while doing some school, we were given a tour of Paramount Stage M (still standing at the time) and the music library. We each got to ask to look at a score. I asked to see Star Trek III and Braveheart. So fantastic! Braveheart's manuscript was in Horner's own hand (I was told) – it looked beautiful. Very clean and legible: stems drawn with a ruler, etc. And there were so many mysteries of the orchestration and harmony in Star Trek III that were absolutely fascinating to see written down on the page. That was a manuscript with *many* lines.

Great analysis. Look forward to reading more.

Cheers,

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 24, 2014 - 7:24 PM   
 By:   RM Eastman   (Member)

I find it hard to believe that someone as educated as you presume to be, would take Horner seriously??

'Music4film" Seems to me you should concentrate on your own career instead of your obsession with Mr. Horner.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 24, 2014 - 7:40 PM   
 By:   itstownerman   (Member)

I think its a terrific thread & hope it lives on.
Horner's music is very important to me as well!



Yes, it lives on..because ms horner lifts and steals from other composers...Ops did i say that? I mean ms horner borrow's. yikes

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 25, 2014 - 8:12 AM   
 By:   iain   (Member)

I find it hard to believe that someone as educated as you presume to be, would take Horner seriously??

'Music4film" Seems to me you should concentrate on your own career instead of your obsession with Mr. Horner.


Seems like you're more obsessed with Horner than anyone else ?

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 25, 2014 - 9:08 PM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

Kudos to you for starting a thread like this, music4film!

Unfortunately, I'm not a musician, so I can't comment with any meaningful insight on this issue -- at least not with the musical terminology currently being employed -- but we need more in-depth stuff here, whether it's from a musicological or film-analytical viewpoint (in the latter, I may be of more use).


Glad to see you are enjoying the thread. If you'd like to contribute, I'd love to see your film-analytical viewpoint of the scene being discussed here!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 26, 2014 - 10:10 AM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

Thanks for the analysis. A little difficult, certainly, to follow, but interesting enough.

Are those Horners's own full score pages that you are using? Clearly, not all that much for an orchestrator to do on this score, as it seems to be all there.

I love the "Legends" score a lot, and listen to it frequently, so I already have an interest in
learning more.


This is actually the completed score, which means the orchestrator has already done his part. As I speculated earlier, I doubt there was much the orchestrator had to do other than neatly prepare the score from the original sketches and perhaps fill in a few voices, but only Horner and Pasatieri know for sure! wink

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 26, 2014 - 9:58 PM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

I think its a terrific thread & hope it lives on.
Horner's music is very important to me as well!


Hmm, perhaps I should compose a song called "My Thread Will Go On?" wink

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 26, 2014 - 10:45 PM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

music4film - I too applaud your efforts. It's one of those rare threads which may initially turn people off, because this is the Internet and people have even shorter attention spans than usual when looking at a computer screen. It really does deserve to be read slowly and carefully on the printed page under a lamp.

Thanks and you're right, ideally you would read an analysis like this in print, with the text in one hand and the score in the other. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2014 - 10:53 PM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm a composer too, also with Horner to thank! And what a shame that people have to stop by and remind you that you're not permitted to discuss Horner unless you first address their terms.

Legends of the Fall is a beautiful score – one my favourites. I would love to see more of the manuscript. I see a change was made (to catch editing I guess): on the album bars 11 and 12 are 5/4 and 3/4 instead of both 4/4.

Aside, a long time ago while doing some school, we were given a tour of Paramount Stage M (still standing at the time) and the music library. We each got to ask to look at a score. I asked to see Star Trek III and Braveheart. So fantastic! Braveheart's manuscript was in Horner's own hand (I was told) – it looked beautiful. Very clean and legible: stems drawn with a ruler, etc. And there were so many mysteries of the orchestration and harmony in Star Trek III that were absolutely fascinating to see written down on the page. That was a manuscript with *many* lines.

Great analysis. Look forward to reading more.

Cheers,


Thanks for reading, Iain. Sounds like you have excellent taste! And I just ignore the trolls, it's actually quite humorous to watch these old windbags beat their chests and recycle the same old tired lines over and over, as if they think repeating it enough times will convince the rest of us.

At any rate, I digress. Great insight on the meter change! You're right, I rewatched that scene and the 5/4 shift allowed the third brass chord to line up perfectly with a dramatic cut back to the good guys. It appears they even edited it further, as the first two beats are truncated to sync everything up just right. This is one of my all time favorite scores as well.

Awesome choices for Paramount scores - I envy you, my friend. Braveheart is one score I have not had the pleasure of studying. Horner did most of his own orchestrations for that one (with an assist from Dennis Dreith), so I'd imagine that most of it is indeed in his own hand. Perhaps you can spot the cues Dreith worked on from the differences in writing.

I absolutely love looking through the handwritten scores from the earlier age - they really are works of art in my eyes! It is much more personal than looking at a computer notated score, there is so much nuance that is lost in the computer generated scores of today. Like you said, the scores themselves look beautiful, and the personality of the orchestrator really shines through his work. The manuscripts of Grieg McRitchie, Don Davis, etc. are a joy to look at.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 29, 2014 - 9:16 PM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

I find it hard to believe that someone as educated as you presume to be, would take Horner seriously??

'Music4film" Seems to me you should concentrate on your own career instead of your obsession with Mr. Horner.


The sheer ignorance of this post is simply appalling.

First of all, the fact that you find it "hard to believe" that somebody of my stature would appreciate Horner's music simply shows how little you truly know about his music. I just gave a very detailed analysis of why I enjoy Horner's music, finding many meaningful observations in a limited excerpt of just 3 pages, to which you had no reply, instead resorting to baseless attacks.

Second of all, the fact that you have the gall to suggest what I should do with my free time, and tritely attempt to classify my healthy interest as an "obsession," is simply asinine.

And finally, just the fact that you chose to post such mindless drivel after I so clearly asked any mud-flinging cretins such as yourself to avoid posting in this thread shows your true colors. If this is the best that you have, then please do us all a favor and limit yourself from posting in this thread in the future.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 29, 2014 - 9:30 PM   
 By:   RM Eastman   (Member)

MUSIC4FILM: tsk tsk tsk

No need to flip out Sir, enjoy Horner at your pleasure.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 12:23 PM   
 By:   Alex Klein   (Member)

Music4film,
Thank you for taking the effort and time to share this wonderful thread. As a composer and musicologist myself, I see it as a great opportunity to expand my knowledge on Horner's music. I will give you more detailed feedback once I get more time on my hands. Your endeavour deserves a closer and more detailed look and discussion.
Off the top of my head, I find Horner's use of the embellished B dominant a wonderful modulation resource composers such as Debussy used extensively. It is constant proof of the importance bass notes have, no matter what the upper voices do. That lower register gives the composer a much-needed stability when using complex chords and harmonies. Morricone loves this type of writing for strings as well. It can underline the ethereal but it can also be a great resource to produce tension.

Alex

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 12:29 PM   
 By:   McMillan & Husband   (Member)

I find it hard to believe that someone as educated as you presume to be, would take Horner seriously??

'Music4film" Seems to me you should concentrate on your own career instead of your obsession with Mr. Horner.


Accusing people of being obsessed by certain composers is a bit rich coming from you. How's the Goldsmith love pillow doing? Don't get it too dirty.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 12:33 PM   
 By:   Broughtfan   (Member)

Music4film,
Thank you for taking the effort and time to share this wonderful thread. As a composer and musicologist myself, I see it as a great opportunity to expand my knowledge on Horner's music. I will give you more detailed feedback once I get more time on my hands. Your endeavour deserves a closer and more detailed look and discussion.
Off the top of my head, I find Horner's use of the embellished B dominant a wonderful modulation resource composers such as Debussy used extensively. It is constant proof of the importance bass notes have, no matter what the upper voices do. That lower register gives the composer a much-needed stability when using complex chords and harmonies. Morricone loves this type of writing for strings as well. It can underline the ethereal but it can also be a great resource to produce tension.

Alex


One thing you have to give to James Horner is that he has a well-developed harmonic sense (even in a modernistic setting, such as with the Krull "Widow's Web" sequence), one which enables him to seamlessly knit sequences that run ten, sometimes as long as fifteen minutes. When one considers how many notes are present in even a minute of music, his ability to "weave the quilt" seems all the more impressive.

 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 12:41 PM   
 By:   johnbijl   (Member)



One thing you have to give to James Horner is that he has a well-developed harmonic sense, one which enables him to seamlessly knit sequences that run ten, sometimes as long as fifteen minutes. When one considers how many notes are present in even a minute of music, his ability to "weave the quilt" seems all the more impressive.



Indeed. The long lined melody of Krull never siezes to amaze me. What is it? 18-20 bars? Must be the longest theme in films cores ever.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 1:28 PM   
 By:   Broughtfan   (Member)



One thing you have to give to James Horner is that he has a well-developed harmonic sense, one which enables him to seamlessly knit sequences that run ten, sometimes as long as fifteen minutes. When one considers how many notes are present in even a minute of music, his ability to "weave the quilt" seems all the more impressive.



Indeed. The long lined melody of Krull never siezes to amaze me. What is it? 18-20 bars? Must be the longest theme in films cores ever.


The library cue in "Something Wicked This Way Comes" is a prime example of how effortless his music plays on screen. Before one knows it, seven, eight minutes have passed but you don't realize it because his music conforms to the screen images like a well-tailored suit.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 1:34 PM   
 By:   RM Eastman   (Member)

I find it hard to believe that someone as educated as you presume to be, would take Horner seriously??

'Music4film" Seems to me you should concentrate on your own career instead of your obsession with Mr. Horner.


Accusing people of being obsessed by certain composers is a bit rich coming from you. How's the Goldsmith love pillow doing? Don't get it too dirty.


I admit an obsession with Goldsmith's music and a few other composers too!!!

 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 11:51 AM   
 By:   Senn555   (Member)

Do we have to devolve into "bronies" and go into "attack & counter-attack" mode?

It's a better character trait then devolving into "trekkies" and coming into certain threads just to spout off sarcastic, condescending, and ignorant remarks.

Think about that the next time you cry about wanting "an open, honest, intelligent discussion".

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 7:57 PM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

MUSIC4FILM: tsk tsk tsk

No need to flip out Sir, enjoy Horner at your pleasure.


Ah, well thank you for the permission, good sir! razz (And what is the "tsk tsk" for?)

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 1, 2014 - 11:49 AM   
 By:   music4film   (Member)

Yes, it lives on..because ms horner lifts and steals from other composers...Ops did i say that? I mean ms horner borrow's. yikes

Boy oh boy, these threads sure do succeed at drawing the trolls from their caves, don't they? But this comment is just too ignorant to take seriously.

To the author - I must congratulate you, good sir, on the amount of spelling and grammatical errors that you managed to squeeze into just two lines of text. Well done.

 
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