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If Plagiarism is a hanging matter... Is self-Plagiarism suicide ?.
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Posted: |
Sep 27, 2005 - 1:46 PM
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By: |
Jon A. Bell
(Member)
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Well, okay, what the hell -- I'll play the game, too. Below is my list of Horner scores and their "references" to other scores -- and in some cases, outright lifts:
1.) Battle Beyond the Stars = Most egregiously, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Alexander Nevsky
2.) Humanoids from the Deep = The Unanswered Question (Charles Ives), Shostakovich’s 5th Symphony, 4th movement, The Boys from Brazil, The Swarm
3.) Wolfen = The Unanswered Question (Charles Ives), which also forms the basis of Khan’s theme in ST II
4.) Star Trek II = (See above), Alexander Nevsky
5.) Star Trek III = Romeo and Juliet, The Blue Max
6.) Cocoon = The Natural by Randy Newman, and literally 30 seconds of music, note for note (although re-orchestrated), re-used from ST II – this is the most shocking example, and one which jolted me right out of the movie (during a dramatic boat chase scene.) There’s simply no defending this re-use of this musical passage in a film that came out only 1-2 years after ST II.
7.) Aliens = Capricorn One, ST-III, Khatchaturian’s Gayane ballet suite (re-used for no apparent reason in later Horner scores like Patriot Games, Sneakers, etc.)
8.) Glory = themes by Prokofiev, including note-for-note lifts from the Lt. Kije suite, Orff’s Carmina Burana, and others, as people have pointed out
9.) Gorky Park = parts of Cat People
10.) Willow = Robert Schumann’s 4th Symphony, 1st movement (the Willow theme, basically “re-timed”); the Elora Danan theme is lifted, note for note, from an old Bulgarian folk song (Mysterious Voices of Bulgaria, Vol. 1, track 11)
11.) Krull = Richard Strauss’s Alpine Symphony, parts of Alex North’s “The Agony and the Ecstacy.” (Regardless, this is one of the best scores Horner's ever written; I'd die happy if I could write a symphony as powerful and complex as "Krull.")
12.) Sneakers = heavily influenced by John Adams, Philip Glass and Steve Reich (minimalist music; 20th-century orchestral)
13.) Titanic = Courage Under Fire, Enya’s Book of Days (both used in the temp)
14.) Enemy at the Gates = John William’s Schindler’s List (which some people argue is taken from another symphony, although I can’t remember which one right now)
15.) A Beautiful Mind = Horner’s own Bicentennial Man, which was taken from Sneakers, which was taken from Adams, Glass and Reich (above)
16.) Journey of Natty Gann = parts of Copland’s Appalachian Spring (or is it another Copland piece?)
17.) Something Wicked this Way Comes = somewhat "influenced" by the Imperial March (Williams) and Herrmann's "Mysterious Island" (still a great main title, though)
Having said all this, I like a lot of Horner's music (he's one of the top 3 composers I have in my collection, along with Williams and Goldsmith), but it pains me that the guy not only resorts to lifting from other sources, but won't acknowledge that he does. If I were Ron Howard, I would've forced him to re-write that ST-II piece he used in "Cocoon," or fired him.
-- Jon
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Posted: |
Sep 27, 2005 - 3:55 PM
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By: |
Howard L
(Member)
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THE ALL-PURPOSE REBUTTAL TO HORNER APOLOGISTS
(cut and pasted, appropriately, from their own words...to be copied and pasted, even more appropriately, to future threads):
The music fits all his films like a glove!.....and more importantly they are all listenable(with the odd exception!)
NEVER AN ISSUE, NEVER AT ISSUE. IRRELEVANT.
Then don't listen to his music!
NEVER AN ISSUE, NEVER AT ISSUE. IRRELEVANT.
But the truth is that James Horner's music is indicitive of most film scores today...
EXACTLY. IF HE'D HAVE PULLED HIS ACT DURING THE GOLDEN AGE HE'D HAVE BEEN RUN OUT OF TOWN ON A RAIL...BY HIS CONTEMPORARIES.
If you want to talk about stealing other people's music then look no further than Goldsmith...Jerry Goldsmith is my favorite composer and he has done that a few times...
OTHER PEOPLE'S? EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE SUBJECT OF QUOTING, FOOTNOTING & PARODYING. HIS OWN?? LOOK UP FILM MUSIC PENAL CODE & NOTE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PETTY THEFT AND GRAND LARCENY.
He's probably the most well known film composer (save John Williams and Henry Mancini) on the planet. Success breeds contempt.
OSAMA BIN LADEN IS THE MOST WELL-KNOWN PERSON ON THE PLANET. SUCCESS BREEDS INFAMY.
However, I've also long since followed Ron Pulliam's advice and learned to ignore it.
AGREED. HORNER APOLOGISTS SHOULDN'T BE SEEN AND SHOULDN'T BE HEARD.
Why all the Horner bashing?
ACCUSING ONE(S) OF BASHING IS THE LAST REFUGE OF APOLOGISTS, FOR "BASHING" APPLIES TO WILDLY UNFOUNDED CRITICISM WHEREAS OUR MAN JAMES EARNS EVERYTHING HE GETS, PRAISE & SCORN ALIKE.
Give him a break!!!
SEE ALL OF THE ABOVE.
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He's probably the most well known film composer (save John Williams and Henry Mancini) on the planet. Success breeds contempt.
OSAMA BIN LADEN IS THE MOST WELL-KNOWN PERSON ON THE PLANET. SUCCESS BREEDS INFAMY.
Wow, comparing James Horner (whatever his merits or faults) to Osama Bin Laden. I never thought I'd see the day. I understand your point here, but jeez.
Besides, I always thought the most well-known person on the planet was Britney Spears.
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I'm not surprised Horner probably will NEVER do a concert, one of you folks out there would be yelling YAH YAH YAH, we've heard that in an old Copeland piece, play something new...
The Something Wicked with the Star Wars is stretching I'm afraid.
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Horner's "Something Wicked" does indeed resemble "The Imperial March" from TESB (but then, Williams' Main Title for Star Wars reminded me of Korngold's "King's Row."
A direct lift of Horner's is his use of a theme from Copland's "Our Town" for "Field of Dreams."
NPR used to have a page that compared samples of Horner's score for "Perfect Storm" with similar classical themes. It appears to be missing when you do a search on the NPR site.
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