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 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 7:06 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Remember the good old days when we said to each faces, your Mother wears combat boots? big grin

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 8:38 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

We've all been saying all this for ages, the projection thing, the nonverbal signs thing, the unaccountability of anonymity etc., and I would add the accelerated intimacy and absence of boundaries when computers at home are involved, people hot having time to 'armour up' as they do in real interactions.

I don't know how much you transpondites follow British current affairs (what with us being an 'oppressive nation' 'n all), but there's a lot of debate about Twitter at the moment over here, and changes WILL be made. Parliament is calling Twitter executives to select committee account soon, and there are legal test cases against 'trolls'. One MP was threatned with rape and harrassed by bizarre folk, and there will probably be new regulations imposed by UK bills:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23507680

Governments (at least responsible ones who don't ABUSE cynically the idea of 'freedom') are beginning to take notice and there will be prosecutions. Perhaps Google's pretty barefaced avoidance of UK tax has made the powers that be finally sit up and take notice. New legislation is also on the cards to properly deal with child pornography.

It has to be international though. The tone of communication on the internet is seriously lacking in respect as a rule, indeed as a policy. Your tracks are viewed and analysed regularly to bombard you with targetted advertising, and assumptions are made about everybody that subliminally can cause us all to lower our idea of self-dignity. There are music boards just like this one where porn and dating sites are advertised, and it's up to you whether you roll with those punches and let yourself swim with the garbage. It's the WHOLE CULTURE of the internet that needs an overhaul. Self dignity shouldn't be ditched as some sort of outdated thing for grandads.

If the Chinese can filter out whatever they think unsavoury, then surely free countries can, without the tedious and cynical cry of 'You're affecting out freedoms'. In future there WILL be prosecutions.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 11:46 AM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

I think it is a good article and delineates why problems occur on the Internet
and offers some ways to avoid them or resolve them. I also find that “some” of
those examples are relevant to any form of communication, even face-to-
face dialogue.

Scott is so very correct. It is how you disagree that is important. I don’t mind if
someone doesn’t care for a score that I like. It is fine to say, “This score didn’t
resonate with me, but I’m glad you like it.” Unfortunately, that style is
is totally foreign to some.

One item that I thought it was missing on Internet etiquette was the problem
of staying firmly entrenched in a view no matter what new information
is presented and that often causes friction at this board. I may post
an opinion about orchestrations, themes, a composer, etc. Then I ask
for others to express their opinions. If their opinions are different from
mine, I may refuse to give their points ANY credibility no matter what
information is offered. I find that, “Yeah I want others’ opinions but
I-won’t-budge-one-inch-or-molecule-from-my-entrenched-firmly-
cemented-point-of-view-no-matter-what-others-say,” the reason
why rather calm, positive people finally get irritated and angry during
discussions. People seem to have the lost the art of acknowledging
other opinions as possibly containing at least a wee bit of merit….and
then anger ensues.

We’ve had many discussions like this, and people don’t change. However,
I’m suppose to end positively, so on a positive note, don’t forget that you have
the right and freedom to press the Ignore Button. wink

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 12:22 PM   
 By:   Regie   (Member)

William and Joan really make sense with their comments. The absence of body language is a HUGE factor, IMO. We just wouldn't say these things to somebody's face and be so insistent and dogmatic about our own views - social skills would see us want to be more maleable and conciliatory. I know I've fallen into this trap myself occasionally.

William talks, inter alia, about intimacy and lack of boundaries with the internet. This is very true. It's up to us all to establish those boundaries ourselves. I have been stalked/harrassed on the internet myself by the same person for just over 3 years - followed from one messageboard to another - so I know all about this. Some people are isolated and lacking social skills and when somebody shows compassion and interest in them this can spill over into emailing - I think this is what happened to me - then they often don't know how to let it go. Mine never took "no" for an answer and I finally had to shut all the doors of access permanently and give up further participation on the sites in question.

None of us is perfect, but there are certainly very troubled individuals in the cyber world. We seem to be able to avoid these types much better in our face-to-face lives, though I confess that many of my creative, intelligent and clever friends have often also been troubled ones!

I think laws are the answer and the likes of Google, Facebook etc. cannot walk away from their responsibilities. Newspaper sites are absolutely the worst for trolling - incredibly bad and very badly 'moderated'. BTW, I think moderation is hugely key in this whole experience and I've always found that wanting on music messageboards I've joined. (For example, nobody was prepared to help me with my harrasser when he was in full flight of vitriol.) And the net crosses the age ranges - somebody my age would unlikely to be very tolerant of teenage or twentysomething shenanigans.

Honestly, though, I do think things are improving and will continue to do so generally if the cyber "community" expects better.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 2:39 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

Yes, body language is a huge factor. Some researchers say that our body language conveys 75 to 80 percent of our message, and we can't see each other on the Internet. I would also add "tone" as a factor in our messages. For instance we can say "shut up" to someone and not mean anything negative. Our tone would just convey a, "You are kidding, and I'm incredulous by that information."
Or we could say "shut up" meaning I hope you don't say another word and please super glue your upper lip to your lower lip. One's tone could convey shut up to mean that I'm shocked at the information. The other conveys a negative and rude reaction. Absence of tone hinders authentic communication.

I know we FINALLY have stalking laws to help people who are literally followed, but Regie, I'm wondering if there are cyber stalking laws that could have helped you?

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 3:20 PM   
 By:   Jehannum   (Member)

We've all been saying all this for ages, the projection thing, the nonverbal signs thing, the unaccountability of anonymity etc., and I would add the accelerated intimacy and absence of boundaries when computers at home are involved, people hot having time to 'armour up' as they do in real interactions.

I don't know how much you transpondites follow British current affairs (what with us being an 'oppressive nation' 'n all), but there's a lot of debate about Twitter at the moment over here, and changes WILL be made. Parliament is calling Twitter executives to select committee account soon, and there are legal test cases against 'trolls'. One MP was threatned with rape and harrassed by bizarre folk, and there will probably be new regulations imposed by UK bills:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23507680

Governments (at least responsible ones who don't ABUSE cynically the idea of 'freedom') are beginning to take notice and there will be prosecutions. Perhaps Google's pretty barefaced avoidance of UK tax has made the powers that be finally sit up and take notice. New legislation is also on the cards to properly deal with child pornography.

It has to be international though. The tone of communication on the internet is seriously lacking in respect as a rule, indeed as a policy. Your tracks are viewed and analysed regularly to bombard you with targetted advertising, and assumptions are made about everybody that subliminally can cause us all to lower our idea of self-dignity. There are music boards just like this one where porn and dating sites are advertised, and it's up to you whether you roll with those punches and let yourself swim with the garbage. It's the WHOLE CULTURE of the internet that needs an overhaul. Self dignity shouldn't be ditched as some sort of outdated thing for grandads.

If the Chinese can filter out whatever they think unsavoury, then surely free countries can, without the tedious and cynical cry of 'You're affecting out freedoms'. In future there WILL be prosecutions.


Shit like this ^ needs to be trolled. Were you drunk when you wrote it, man? Talk about rambling from one load of bollocks to another. And that's not to mention the typos!

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 3:34 PM   
 By:   Tester   (Member)

I absolutely mean well with this, but... doesn't the non-film score discussion board existence imply that the general discussion board is used to talk about, you know, film scores, not about patronizing and instructive posts about the human condition, like "I've been an aggressive guy lately because some sad reasons" or "put a emoticon in your life"?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 3:47 PM   
 By:   Regie   (Member)

A previous post is a typical example of the "projection" discussed in the original article. And these things ought to be discussed, particularly when I get a private email from somebody on this board who expresses reluctance to discuss this issue publicly for fear of trolling!

The good thing about the internet is that there is a wealth of information available which would help people identify those with personality disorder characteristics and, thus, avoid them.

But if people are allowed to throw hand grenades into community discussions and get away with it this kind of behaviour will continue to happen.

In short, the people do have the power for change.

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 4:08 PM   
 By:   Mr Greg   (Member)

Interesting article, but it's age shows. In 2002, internet access was hardly the mainstream activity we see today...back then it was restricted by computer ownership, Internet Cafe use, and those high-end users of the earliest tablets and "smartphones".

In 2013, I can go to any phone shop with less than the cost of a small round of drinks and be on-line within minutes...and a recent experiment (as yet unpublished unless someone else out there has done it, which is quite likely, but my experiment was not just about those first stages) shows that I can have a PC set up in my home, with full broadband 24/7 access, for less than £50 (including the cost of the PC)....pretty-much not the case in 2002 unless you were lucky.

I'm sure ease of access has something to do with the proliferation of the troll...

....and it fails to mention the frankly enormous number of people who are incapable of civility at all, let alone on internet forums...but I think some of this may be as a result of the above...

...but I think the tide is turning...slowly...and the ongoing case regarding the Twitterers who threatened rape against those campaigning for the female on the £10 note is only going to help push it further into the public eye, and push harder towards the need for more to be done.

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 4:12 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

My experiences here show it to be a good and unique place to gain perspectives on film music specifically. I still entain a perhaps naive notion that everyone is here to do just that. I have had one thread locked when the original intent turned south due to my ignorance of recent american history and the wider implications that were inherent in my otherwise innocently ventured thread subject. It was unexpected, but it blew up in my face. I don't blame anyone, including myself. These things just seem to be part of human nature and are implicit whether they are liked or not. The best thing to do is ignore what you don't like and engage with what you do. This is not World War Z. Is it? big grin

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 4:21 PM   
 By:   Regie   (Member)

Grecchus, I think all messageboards are subject to the menace of incivility and aggression. One doesn't have to look very far, and I've read comments on some of these threads (and I'm only a relative newcomer) which are directly hostile and confrontational - not to mention some private discussions I've had about the tone, at times, on the board. But, it IS one of the better ones!!

Despite its age, I thought the article in question was worth posting and some people have read it and agreed.

I agree with you, Greg, it's the ubiquity of the net which is a factor in all of this. I've started the discussion, too, because of unpleasant personal experiences - and I'm somebody's grandmother!!

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 4:29 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

The great thing about the FSM board is that it is a positive place. Lukas is very generous indeed to let us push and shove a little while in line. Still, the internet is a place where words and images are bartered. In the real world things can be very ugly. Infinitely more so than exchanges of words on an electronic forum.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 5:22 PM   
 By:   Regie   (Member)

The great thing about the FSM board is that it is a positive place. Lukas is very generous indeed to let us push and shove a little while in line. Still, the internet is a place where words and images are bartered. In the real world things can be very ugly. Infinitely more so than exchanges of words on an electronic forum.

I think internet exploitation (pedophile rings, drug dealing, wholesale fraud) can be equally as ugly - and I also think it has the capacity to START wars! You've got to ask yourself why the Chinese go the trouble they do to filter and censor the internet.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 6:36 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

"I absolutely mean well with this, but... doesn't the non-film score discussion board existence imply that the general discussion board is used to talk about, you know, film scores, not about patronizing and instructive posts about the human condition, like "I've been an aggressive guy lately because some sad reasons" or "put a emoticon in your life"?"

A previous post is a typical example of the "projection" discussed in the original article. And these things ought to be discussed, particularly when I get a private email from somebody on this board who expresses reluctance to discuss this issue publicly for fear of trolling!



I disagree. That is, if the post I've quoted is the comment you are referring to. It is not "projection" to point out that, factually, this thread more properly belongs on the other side of the board.

But as you've chosen to keep it here, I will say that many posters here have long been lobbying for exactly the kind of discourse you describe. It's not new, sadly. However, it bears repeating that this is not a public forum. It is private and it has its own rules. When one feels those rules are broken there is a constabulatory presence to which one takes the issue. I would estimate that most of the members here find this system (at least) satisfactory.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 6:57 PM   
 By:   henry   (Member)

I have taken many courses on civility but I just can't get it.big grin

 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 7:13 PM   
 By:   edwzoomom   (Member)

A previous post is a typical example of the "projection" discussed in the original article. And these things ought to be discussed, particularly when I get a private email from somebody on this board who expresses reluctance to discuss this issue publicly for fear of trolling!

The good thing about the internet is that there is a wealth of information available which would help people identify those with personality disorder characteristics and, thus, avoid them.

But if people are allowed to throw hand grenades into community discussions and get away with it this kind of behaviour will continue to happen.

In short, the people do have the power for change.



First of all Regie, thank you for posting this. I read the article through and believe it takes a civilian through a common sense litany of what is happening on the web and how it can improve. But I think I am a bit stunned at some of the responses to your original post. Seriously?

I had only been a member here for a few days when someone posted a snarky response to some comment I made. Truth told, it stung but then I realized the snotty sarcastic retort I WANTED to make would only make me look like a fool. Instead I grew a thicker skin and moved on. I will say though that the depth of the animosity of some of the comments here and their crassness caught me off guard initially. It was my naive assumption that people who loved film music were surely above all of this. Alas, I was wrong and have gotten used to it. But the majority of comments and threads are civil and full of the spirit that founded this board.

The internet has given a voice to everyone whether we want to hear them or not. Freedom to speak is a wonderful thing but unfortunately there are some out there who cannot seem to do it without wounding or wreaking havoc on others. I have read comments at the end of news articles, on message boards like this and in chatrooms that have taken my breath away and left me shaking my head. The blatant bigotry and bullying has left me rattled. However, this is when I tell myself that this is a minority and certainly does not represent who we truly are.

I have retreated from the political and issue oriented forums and now only come here. This is a sanctuary from these types of places and I am truly optimistic that it will continue to be.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 9:03 PM   
 By:   Regie   (Member)

Octoberman, you may be right that those comments weren't "projections" per se, but the tone of the comments overall was angry and, possibly, inflammatory.

If people don't GET the need for civility we can only feel sorry for them, for it is certain that this kind of attitude will affect their social success or otherwise in the face-to-face world (I wish somebody would find a good word which conveys the difference between cyber and 'real world' interactions!).

Judging by the comments on the board - and there is a place for it right here IMO - it was justified and, as I said, I also had a private email about it. There is hostility on this messageboard, but I've been on others where there is far more but I don't waste my time with these anymore.

In the end, if I find that the negative outweighs the positive I'll exercise my constitutional right to leave!!

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 9:56 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Octoberman, you may be right that those comments weren't "projections" per se, but the tone of the comments overall was angry and, possibly, inflammatory.
If people don't GET the need for civility we can only feel sorry for them, for it is certain that this kind of attitude will affect their social success or otherwise in the face-to-face world (I wish somebody would find a good word which conveys the difference between cyber and 'real world' interactions!).
Judging by the comments on the board - and there is a place for it right here IMO - it was justified and, as I said, I also had a private email about it. There is hostility on this messageboard, but I've been on others where there is far more but I don't waste my time with these anymore.
In the end, if I find that the negative outweighs the positive I'll exercise my constitutional right to leave!!



With all due respect, there is no "maybe" about it. This side of the board IS for specific discussion of film scores. Anything else belongs on the "Non-Film Score Discussion" side. Certainly there is a place, even a need, for this topic--I was merely reiterating that the other poster was correct in pointing that out that the choice of location was questionable. You implied hostility on that poster's particular point where none existed.

Additionally, it's very likely you also would have gotten the same volume of responses regardless of where you put the thread. It is a valuable topic to which much can be contributed.

Of course this is all splitting hairs. But such things are allowed.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2013 - 11:10 PM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

I absolutely mean well with this, but... doesn't the non-film score discussion board existence imply that the general discussion board is used to talk about, you know, film scores, not about patronizing and instructive posts about the human condition, like "I've been an aggressive guy lately because some sad reasons" or "put a emoticon in your life"?


An apology should always be made at the same place as the offence is caused.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 4, 2013 - 12:38 AM   
 By:   Regie   (Member)

Octoberman, I had completely forgotten there WAS another section of this messageboard!!

 
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