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 Posted:   Jun 15, 2013 - 7:49 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)



But how can anyone without personal relation to these two men attack them by saying statements that imply they themselves understand the music better then the man who created it and the man who commissioned it for "his" film? This is going almost beyond critic and as seems to be the norm for some here... it is just insulting to the artists.

What makes me laugh about this is if some of you who claim to "know better" actually were in charge we'd never get film scores that elevate or SURPASS the finished product since the composer missed the memo he was scoring a terrible film.


You seem like a reasonable guy rather than some of those mindless drones here that adore Zimmer unquestionably as a god so I'll try to reason with you.

Yes people can "understand" the music/film/book/whatever better than its creator.

Think like this: If your three-year-old son made some doodling on the wall, surely one is not prohibited to "understand" it better than said three-year-old because --

(surprise!) It's completely devoid of artistic merit (well maybe the three-year-old may claim otherwise) as it's doodling by a three-year-old who lacks the intelligence and education to understand "art" properly.

Sadly this is the same case with Zimmer. He plainly lacks the proper education (and before you say "Danny Elfman!" you have to realize that Zimmer didn't even attempt to self-educate himself properly unlike Elfman) and artistic sense.

His simplicity is NOT by choice, but only due to his limitations. Any more sophisticated composer can easily imitate Zimmer (Doyle did a great Zimmer-alike with Thor) but when Zimmer tried to do anything complicated, the result is fairly laughable.

As for your last point, basing your argument on a hypothetical is not effective. How would you know the result if I WERE put in charge of Man of Steel?


YOR loves facehugger!

But still got scared by it!

 
 Posted:   Jun 15, 2013 - 8:31 PM   
 By:   Sirusjr   (Member)

Well said Facehugger big grin

 
 Posted:   Jun 15, 2013 - 9:41 PM   
 By:   The REAL BJBien   (Member)



But how can anyone without personal relation to these two men attack them by saying statements that imply they themselves understand the music better then the man who created it and the man who commissioned it for "his" film? This is going almost beyond critic and as seems to be the norm for some here... it is just insulting to the artists.

What makes me laugh about this is if some of you who claim to "know better" actually were in charge we'd never get film scores that elevate or SURPASS the finished product since the composer missed the memo he was scoring a terrible film.


You seem like a reasonable guy rather than some of those mindless drones here that adore Zimmer unquestionably as a god so I'll try to reason with you.

Yes people can "understand" the music/film/book/whatever better than its creator.

Think like this: If your three-year-old son made some doodling on the wall, surely one is not prohibited to "understand" it better than said three-year-old because --

(surprise!) It's completely devoid of artistic merit (well maybe the three-year-old may claim otherwise) as it's doodling by a three-year-old who lacks the intelligence and education to understand "art" properly.

Sadly this is the same case with Zimmer. He plainly lacks the proper education (and before you say "Danny Elfman!" you have to realize that Zimmer didn't even attempt to self-educate himself properly unlike Elfman) and artistic sense.

His simplicity is NOT by choice, but only due to his limitations. Any more sophisticated composer can easily imitate Zimmer (Doyle did a great Zimmer-alike with Thor) but when Zimmer tried to do anything complicated, the result is fairly laughable.

As for your last point, basing your argument on a hypothetical is not effective. How would you know the result if I WERE put in charge of Man of Steel?


I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this point because we disagree on a key component; Zimmer himself.

I like some of Zimmer's work and consider him to be a good composer.

I am on the side that him and his RC/MV crew have become a "bad" thing to film scoring because before it would just be producers and director's saying DO THIS with his temp music but instead we have his clones doing the music in films and other great composers having to mimic it as well and it is hurting film scoring. I fully agree it has gotten lazy but I don't think he is as much to blame any more then one can blame Hollywood in general can be blame for being lazy or more likely the case, just playing it safe.

Again, you can throw everything in a dislike or attack on Zimmer's music [and I'll be the first to defend your right to do so POLITELY] but you cannot say as a be all end all that it is "noise" or has no artistic merit because that boils down to TASTE.

[[Yes, I too find some of today's music to be garbage but its still music ...just music I dislike]

Who are you or anyone really to say his work has ZERO merit? he has ZERO talent? or that his work is all WRONG for the picture?

I can say and others can say it didn't fit or that we THOUGHT it didn't work but again, those are opinions.

People get lucky and some people are talentless hacks that play to the lowest common denominator but lets be realistic here... over 100 films scores, multiple prestigious awards and dozen of collaborations with other masters in the media of film and music over the span of 25 plus years...

All I feel is that he is an "artist" and of that deserves that much respect for the craft he does and the work he makes because the bottom line for me is this: He is a establish film composer who creates film scores and it is in fact music.

Feel free to dislike or adamantly HATE it but make no mistake he is a musician and his work is his work.

I think we can just agree to disagree.

 
 Posted:   Jun 16, 2013 - 6:31 PM   
 By:   mastadge   (Member)

Finally got around to listening to this. First impression: there's not really a whole lot of there there, is there? I have no problem with this not sounding like Williams, and I have nothing against Zimmer -- I enjoy a lot of his scores, including many of his action scores. And I didn't hate this one. I just heard nothing particularly engaging in it, it didn't speak to me about "simple folk," or about anything at all. It just kind of went on, occasionally briefly ventured into mildly entertaining territory, and then ended. There's a chance it will grow on me -- The Dark Knight Rises, which I very much disliked at first, certainly did. But first impression is that this one is simply forgettable, alas. frown

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 16, 2013 - 8:14 PM   
 By:   mrchriswell   (Member)

For the record, I like the picture. The score is awful. Deafening, tuneless, oppressive, every moment weighs a ton. A good cast and solid action elevate the picture, but everything Zimmer does works against it. It's not as headache inducing as Dark Knight Rises, which is the kind of thing you'd use to drive vermin from the premises, but it is an ugly thing and achieves nothing for the film. It doesn't inspire awe, reveal emotion, induce excitement - it doesn't do anything a score for a giant super hero epic is supposed to do. And no, I'm not hung up on Williams. Many of his peers in 78 could have come up with something just as good. And I did like Zimmer for a time. Some good stuff there in the 90s. But I actively hate what he does with these big pictures. Give him a big canvas and he forgets the paint brush; just dumps cans of paint all over it. Not trying to incite his fans; just laying out how I feel.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 7:24 AM   
 By:   facehugger   (Member)



I think we can just agree to disagree.


Let's.

For the record, I saw the film last Sunday. Was much better than I expected from the abysmal track record of the director. In fact, if you don't consider this to be a Superman movie but view it as a Dragon Ball Z movie, it's probably the best Dragon Ball Z movie we'll ever get.

Hack Zack is obviously a puppet here. Had I never known this film is directed by him, I'd never have suspected otherwise.

Music is OK in the film. And that little motif for General Zod is indeed quite catchy. I can't get it out of my head after being hammered for two hours with that motif.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 7:50 AM   
 By:   moviescore1   (Member)

Saw the film on Saturday. My impressions for both the film and the score were just average. I felt like this this was just another action movie. The score was so generic and to me the whole movie just was missing heart. I liked Crowe and Cavil but the endless action sequences at the end just reminded me of something out of Michael Bay's Transformers.

Overall, I was just disappointed. I had high expectations, but about 30 mins into the movie, I realized I should have went and saw Star Trek...

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 9:03 AM   
 By:   stay-puft   (Member)



I think we can just agree to disagree.


Let's.

For the record, I saw the film last Sunday. Was much better than I expected from the abysmal track record of the director. In fact, if you don't consider this to be a Superman movie but view it as a Dragon Ball Z movie, it's probably the best Dragon Ball Z movie we'll ever get.


so Superman is a Dragon Ball Z character in the comics?

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 9:15 AM   
 By:   facehugger   (Member)



I think we can just agree to disagree.


Let's.

For the record, I saw the film last Sunday. Was much better than I expected from the abysmal track record of the director. In fact, if you don't consider this to be a Superman movie but view it as a Dragon Ball Z movie, it's probably the best Dragon Ball Z movie we'll ever get.


so Superman is a Dragon Ball Z character in the comics?


Goku from Dragon Ball Z is based on Superman.

In Man of Steel they lifted so many elements from Dragon Ball Z that I LOLed so hard as a Dragon Ball Z fan.

They even have a big Kryptonian dude named "Nam-Ek" (ring any bell? That's the name of the planet in Dragon Ball Z where Goku turned into Super Saiyan).

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 12:32 PM   
 By:   Dr Lenera   (Member)

For the record, I like the picture. The score is awful. Deafening, tuneless, oppressive, every moment weighs a ton. A good cast and solid action elevate the picture, but everything Zimmer does works against it. It's not as headache inducing as Dark Knight Rises, which is the kind of thing you'd use to drive vermin from the premises, but it is an ugly thing and achieves nothing for the film. It doesn't inspire awe, reveal emotion, induce excitement - it doesn't do anything a score for a giant super hero epic is supposed to do. And no, I'm not hung up on Williams. Many of his peers in 78 could have come up with something just as good. And I did like Zimmer for a time. Some good stuff there in the 90s. But I actively hate what he does with these big pictures. Give him a big canvas and he forgets the paint brush; just dumps cans of paint all over it. Not trying to incite his fans; just laying out how I feel.

That's pretty much how I felt, couldn't have put it better myself, though I hated the film too; soulless, ugly, awful CG, shakycam,etc. But the score is horrid. I'm not automatically a Zimmer hater, but his scores are getting worse and worse, at least for films like this. Monotonou mechanical garbage. There are people out there raving about Zimmer's Superman theme, saying it's the equal of Williams's. I think they're mad.

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 12:55 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

That's pretty much how I felt, couldn't have put it better myself, though I hated the film too; soulless, ugly, awful CG, shakycam,etc. But the score is horrid. I'm not automatically a Zimmer hater, but his scores are getting worse and worse, at least for films like this. Monotonou mechanical garbage. There are people out there raving about Zimmer's Superman theme, saying it's the equal of Williams's. I think they're mad.

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 3:42 PM   
 By:   Loren   (Member)

Face it Zimmer-haters: your efforts to convince people not to listen to this score are useless.

It's amazing how many topics are dedicated to this fantastic score.

And lovers of MoS are not ignorant people as you may think, we even know Williams very well (maybe better than you) and like him BUT do not get fossilized on worn patterns.
On the contrary: Absence of themes, non orthodox orchestration, hybrid use of synth orchestra and percussion are normal background of all educated listeners with good music taste.

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 4:26 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

I've listened to the score and while it didn't grip me, I have to confess that I have close to zero interest in Superman (blasphemy I know); I attribute John Williams' theme more with that montage from Seinfeld than the Christopher Reeve pictures (which I have seen at some point in time but even back then found terribly outdated and boorish). I did enjoy the TV series for what it was worth with the occasional tv dinner. smile

I think I waited a couple of years before seeing Superman Returns and I think I'll do the same thing with Man of Steel; Wait till the hype dies out and judge it on it own merits; The last movie that I got drawn in was The Dark Knight Rises and I regretted paying to go and see it, I slept through most of it (and I liked the first two).

I do understand the reaction to 'Man of Steel' (ridiculous title IMO they wont even call it superman because superman isn't even hip anymore with kids and is associated with that other failed movie), it's the same reaction Star Trek got and the same reaction Skyfall got, an outcry against CHANGE. It was no longer the same characters/feel of the original movies, series whatever. It's bound to divide audiences and those who dislike it will voice it so much more on the internet.

And comparing the composers to the original scores is like apples and oranges; the original approach wouldn't even work in the new versions and would probably sound terribly outdated and overscored (too many notes, too few percussion). An old school approach would be laughable when applied to todays quick pace editing and emphasis on action and non-stop explosion spectacle.

So it's like kicking in an open goal. When Williams scored Superman, there weren't that many comic book adaptations around, when Zimmer did it, they've been done to death. Where you guys really expecting the second coming just because someone announced a new Superman movie? So many big name composers have done one or two superhero movies by now, to varying degrees of success, none of them have had as much of an impact as Elfman did when he scored Batman. I might enjoy Young's Spiderman 3 for its themes and orchestrations, but who outside of score geeks remembers it? Silvestri's Avengers theme was catchy, but still far far away from a Batman.

So props to Danny Elfman for having delivered an iconic score for a comic book movie after Williams did it. As for the rest, it's ok, even Zimmer & JNH's Batman scores, but 'iconic' it hasn't been for quite a while IMO.

My two cents. continue smile

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 4:40 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

I've listened to the score and while it didn't grip me, I have to confess that I have close to zero interest in Superman (blasphemy I know); I attribute John Williams' theme more with that montage from Seinfeld than the Christopher Reeve pictures (which I have seen at some point in time but even back then found terribly outdated and boorish). I did enjoy the TV series for what it was worth with the occasional tv dinner. smile

I think I waited a couple of years before seeing Superman Returns and I think I'll do the same thing with Man of Steel; Wait till the hype dies out and judge it on it own merits; The last movie that I got drawn in was The Dark Knight Rises and I regretted paying to go and see it, I slept through most of it (and I liked the first two).

I do understand the reaction to 'Man of Steel' (ridiculous title IMO they wont even call it superman because superman isn't even hip anymore with kids and is associated with that other failed movie), it's the same reaction Star Trek got and the same reaction Skyfall got, an outcry against CHANGE. It was no longer the same characters/feel of the original movies, series whatever. It's bound to divide audiences and those who dislike it will voice it so much more on the internet.

And comparing the composers to the original scores is like apples and oranges; the original approach wouldn't even work in the new versions and would probably sound terribly outdated and overscored (too many notes, too few percussion). An old school approach would be laughable when applied to todays quick pace editing and emphasis on action and non-stop explosion spectacle.

So it's like kicking in an open goal. When Williams scored Superman, there weren't that many comic book adaptations around, when Zimmer did it, they've been done to death. Where you guys really expecting the second coming just because someone announced a new Superman movie? So many big name composers have done one or two superhero movies by now, to varying degrees of success, none of them have had as much of an impact as Elfman did when he scored Batman. I might enjoy Young's Spiderman 3 for its themes and orchestrations, but who outside of score geeks remembers it? Silvestri's Avengers theme was catchy, but still far far away from a Batman.

So props to Danny Elfman for having delivered an iconic score for a comic book movie after Williams did it. As for the rest, it's ok, even Zimmer & JNH's Batman scores, but 'iconic' it hasn't been for quite a while IMO.

My two cents. continue smile


YOR does not agree with Francis.

People are not crying against the movies you quoted because they were changes, but because they were just lame (except for the new Star Trek).

And nobody is comparing Williams' score with Zimmer's. YOR believes that almos everybody understanded that the movies are quite diferent in tone.

What YOR sees is people just pointing HOW BAD Zimmer' score is, even for his standards - which are pretty low!

And ANY "old school" composer would create a great score for this new movies. Imagine what great scores Jerry Goldsmith would compose for craps like "Transformers"?

So, no. The problem here is Hamzimmer's "style" and what he has done to film music.

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 5:58 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)


And nobody is comparing Williams' score with Zimmer's. YOR believes that almos everybody understanded that the movies are quite diferent in tone.

And ANY "old school" composer would create a great score for this new movies. Imagine what great scores Jerry Goldsmith would compose for craps like "Transformers"?


So nobody is comparing with old school composers? wink

Jerry Goldsmith did Timeline, it got rejected (and not just due to re-editing I'm willing to bet, probably due to that duck trumpet effect). His "The Shadow" paled in comparison to Batman which he probably was asked to reproduce, "The Shadow" was a good effort but not my prime example of a great comic book adaptation score (very hit and miss). If Goldsmith were alive, I'd 'imagine' those type of movies to be scored like Chain Reaction, Nemesis, Deep Rising and U.S. Marshalls; ok scores but as I remember most Goldsmith fans don't care for the 90s/00s Goldsmith, only 70s (you know that decade when John Williams scored Superman), some 40 years ago. So please don't tell me that someone like Goldsmith if he were alive would score a current blockbuster as you would 'imagine'. wink

I'm curious, what is the last Non-Zimmer superhero score Yor would recommend that is a benefactor to film music?

To answer that question myself, I'd say "Batman", there have been good efforts (Judge Dredd, X-men, Spiderman scores, ... ) but even Elfman couldn't recapture the Batman grandness with Hulk and Hellboy. A lot of those superhero scores just follow trend, and isn't that what Zimmer is basically doing?

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 6:19 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

So nobody is comparing with old school composers? wink

Jerry Goldsmith did Timeline, it got rejected (and not just due to re-editing I'm willing to bet, probably due to that duck trumpet effect). His "The Shadow" paled in comparison to Batman which he probably was asked to reproduce, "The Shadow" was a good effort but not my prime example of a great comic book adaptation score (very hit and miss). If Goldsmith were alive, I'd 'imagine' those type of movies to be scored like Chain Reaction, Nemesis, Deep Rising and U.S. Marshalls; ok scores but as I remember most Goldsmith fans don't care for the 90s/00s Goldsmith, only 70s (you know that decade when John Williams scored Superman), some 40 years ago. So please don't tell me that someone like Goldsmith if he were alive would score a current blockbuster as you would 'imagine'. wink

I'm curious, what is the last Non-Zimmer superhero score Yor would recommend that is a benefactor to film music?

To answer that question myself, I'd say "Batman", there have been good efforts (Judge Dredd, X-men, Spiderman scores, ... ) but even Elfman couldn't recapture the Batman grandness with Hulk and Hellboy. A lot of those superhero scores just follow trend, and isn't that what Zimmer is basically doing?


Even "Mr. Baseball" is better than anything Hamzimmer has produced.

But you lost me when you said that "Batman" by Oingoboing is better than "The Shadow".

And YOR likes "Chain Reaction", "Nemesis", "Deep Rising" and "U.S. Marshalls". True, they are all kind of mediocres to Jerry's standards, but WAYYY better than anything by Zimmer or his clones.

As for new super-heroes scores that are good YOR can quote those from Alan Silvestri ("Captain America" and "The Avengers") for example.

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 6:50 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

The score is what contemporary filmmakers, and a large chunk of the audience, wants. It's probably as divisive as the film (which amazingly seems as divisive as Star Trek Into Darkness). But agreed, you can't go back to 40 years ago. But we can still enjoy scores (and films) from 40 years ago.

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 7:10 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

Dude Who Wrotes Interesting Stuff Inside Booklets droped in YOR's humble thread!

YOR is honored!

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 11:33 PM   
 By:   Jon Broxton   (Member)

My proper review of MAN OF STEEL for anyone who is interested:

http://moviemusicuk.us/2013/06/17/man-of-steel-hans-zimmer/#more-3505

Jon

 
 Posted:   Jun 17, 2013 - 11:49 PM   
 By:   Josh Mitchell   (Member)

Dude Who Wrotes Interesting Stuff Inside Booklets droped in YOR's humble thread!

YOR is honored!





We have some lovely parting gifts for YOR...

 
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