Those three Friedhofer-scored films may have been more prominent in their day, or even 30 years ago. But in 2018? They are not How the West Was Won or The Magnificent Seven or Shane.
Yavar
I am not just talking about soundtrack fans where you may be right, but about fans of the Western genre in general. And it is absolutely clear that VERA CRUZ is a true classic there. And as I said, the other two Friedhofer titles of course to a much lesser extent nowadays.
I will absolutely concede the point that Vera Cruz is regarded as classic of the genre among those in the know, which can't be said about the early Goldsmith-scored westerns. But the point I was trying to make (perhaps not well expressed) was that in 2018, "Vera Cruz" is not sufficiently more famous a title to substantially drive sales and overcome the sad general Friedhofer apathy in my opinion...I must admit that even though Vera Cruz would excite me much more, "Dial M for Murder" is at least something with wide name recognition, even if many folks might have trouble recalling the music.
I'm quite happy with this Tiomkin score and will support it. Doug mentioned some other scores he's considering and it all looks great to me. I hope all fans will support this effort and the series will have a long run.
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but instead of pre-predicting which score title will not sell and those that will, let's just sit back and enjoy the good news that Doug and his crew have started this project. He didn't have to.....If anyone knows about how things might sell it's Doug. He's been in the biz for many years and is aware of the pitfalls. The whole idea of the crowdfunding is to have the money to record a score that a segment of the film score community wants on their shelf. It would be wonderful to have a nice profit on each score recorded, but since the "public" has already paid for each project ahead of time and in return received the score cd they wanted, everyone gains. If, for example, Black Patch is crowdfunded in full because the crowd wants Black Patch, then everyone wins and it doesn't need additional big sales to be a success.......
I will admit that I am disappointed by Intrada's first selection. I'm not wild about Tiomkin in general but I particularly dislike his work for Hitchcock. That said, this is the Tiomkin Hitchcock score I dislike the least. It's fine and doesn't detract from the film for the most part. I would never buy this score normally, but since it's to support a new Kickstarter venture on Intrada's part, I will chip in my $25 and hope that for the next one they consider one of the non-Hitchcock scores they listed (or at least Frank Skinner's Saboteur, which they also mentioned -- even though a Frank Skinner re-recording sounds like even more of a long shot, Hitchcock or no).
If this is successful and Intrada decides to take on Shadow of a Doubt next, I will NOT be able to bring myself to support that choice...probably my most disliked score for a Hitchcock film, one of my most disliked film scores of all time in fact.
Yavar
Yavar
Sometimes you can be such a jerk. If you don’t get what you want you go sit in the corner and pout.
It’s not always about you and your taste. Let someone else have fun. There are people who like Tiomkin and welcome these titles.
While I didn’t particularly want another “King of Kings” I supported the campaign. It’s about supporting each other and an interest we all share.
[I will absolutely concede the point that Vera Cruz is regarded as classic of the genre among those in the know, which can't be said about the early Goldsmith-scored westerns. But the point I was trying to make (perhaps not well expressed) was that in 2018, "Vera Cruz" is not sufficiently more famous a title to substantially drive sales and overcome the sad general Friedhofer apathy in my opinion
But the point is also that famous Western genre scores from the 50s still sell quite well among soundtrack collectors - see for example SHANE or GUNFIGHT AT THE O.K. CORRAL. And above all, you have two big stars in VERA CRUZ which everyone still knows very well and which would be another benefit. I am convinced that among Friedhofer titles it may certainly sell much better than his JOAN OF ARC which unfortunately too few people may know at all. No matter if one score may be better than or just as good as the other. So why should Intrada not try a kickstarter campaign for VERA CRUZ?
But the point is also that famous Western genre scores from the 50s still sell quite well among soundtrack collectors - see for example SHANE or GUNFIGHT AT THE O.K. CORRAL.
Those are two titles with MUCH greater name recognition than Vera Cruz. Do you think even if the original tapes for Vera Cruz were discovered and released, that the CD would sell 2000 copies (especially as quickly as Shane or Gunfight at the OK Corral did)?
And above all, you have two big stars in VERA CRUZ which everyone still knows very well and which would be another benefit. I am convinced that among Friedhofer titles it may certainly sell much better than his JOAN OF ARC which unfortunately too few people may know at all. No matter if one score may be better than or just as good as the other. So why should Intrada not try a kickstarter campaign for VERA CRUZ?
It's not a question of "should" here IMO. But Joan of Arc was mentioned by name as a possibility precisely because it has long been one of Doug Fake's personal Holy Grails, which he has talked about on multiple occasions. He has longed for a score release for this much of his life, so it's one that he would be much more likely to produce (and substantially fund) himself. In comparison I'm pretty sure Doug only posted this past year about finally watching Vera Cruz for the first time and liking the Friedhofer score. Which of the two do you think may get an Intrada Kickstarter campaign?
Sometimes you can be such a jerk. If you don’t get what you want you go sit in the corner and pout. It’s not always about you and your taste. Let someone else have fun. There are people who like Tiomkin and welcome these titles. While I didn’t particularly want another “King of Kings” I supported the campaign. It’s about supporting each other and an interest we all share.
I guess you missed the part where I was supportive and said I would contribute to the Dial M for Murder campaign, *despite* it being a Tiomkin score I didn't care much for? In fact, I think that's pretty similar to what you did with King of Kings -- along the lines of "I don't want this but I'll support it anyway because I want to support continued recordings like these". You get so very triggered each and every time I dare to share my opinion on Tiomkin.
Further up in this very same thread, Schiffy wrote: "I am not a fan of Tiomkin's music, and would not otherwise pick this CD up (I don't really remember this score, as I haven't seen the film in years – I think Tiomkin's "Strangers on a Train" score is all right, but I can't stand his "Shadow of a Doubt")."
Yet you didn't call him a "jerk" or accuse him of pouting. Why is that?
I wrote, "I'm not wild about Tiomkin in general but I particularly dislike his work for Hitchcock. That said, this is the Tiomkin Hitchcock score I dislike the least. It's fine and doesn't detract from the film for the most part. I would never buy this score normally, but since it's to support a new Kickstarter venture on Intrada's part, I will chip in my $25 and hope that for the next one they consider one of the non-Hitchcock scores they listed"
How was this particularly more offensive and "pouty" to you? When it comes to each post we make, it IS going to be our own tastes 99% of the time. The same is true of every post you make.
I will contribute to the project as I'm a Tiomkin fan, but probably not at a level to participate in the recording sessions. I'm already going to Prague this November for King of Kings, mainly because I thought I'd never again have the opportunity to attend a recording session. Happily it looks like such opportunities may become regular occurrences. But it's difficult to justify the expense of yet another intercontinental journey so soon for the same purpose.
While we're all suggesting future titles, I'd kill for a recording of Tiomkin's score for Otto Preminger's film noir ANGEL FACE.
Also donated a little... not sure where is all this Hitchcock madness coming from... yet his most requested score is not on the list (FRENZY). How long are these scores? I vaguely remember there was very little score in The Man who knew too much (?).
It is still far more interesting choice than 28th Rozsa's score in a row but hopefully the next one won't be another hitch but something more requested to spice things up.
But Vera Cruz? Hondo? White Feather?...Are any of those films particularly better known today than Black Patch or Face of a Fugitive? I very much doubt it. Yavar
I'd never heard of Black Patch until you mentioned it here. Even then, I assumed it must be a pirate movie.
[I will absolutely concede the point that Vera Cruz is regarded as classic of the genre among those in the know, which can't be said about the early Goldsmith-scored westerns. But the point I was trying to make (perhaps not well expressed) was that in 2018, "Vera Cruz" is not sufficiently more famous a title to substantially drive sales and overcome the sad general Friedhofer apathy in my opinion
But the point is also that famous Western genre scores from the 50s still sell quite well among soundtrack collectors - see for example SHANE or GUNFIGHT AT THE O.K. CORRAL. And above all, you have two big stars in VERA CRUZ which everyone still knows very well and which would be another benefit. I am convinced that among Friedhofer titles it may certainly sell much better than his JOAN OF ARC which unfortunately too few people may know at all. No matter if one score may be better than or just as good as the other. So why should Intrada not try a kickstarter campaign for VERA CRUZ?
I agree. VERA CRUZ is a well known film and score among film lovers. There is nothing to lose and we will find out by trying. Count me in.
I'm surprised that nobody has commented on the mention of Humphrey Searl's "The Haunting".
Also donated a little... not sure where is all this Hitchcock madness coming from... yet his most requested score is not on the list (FRENZY). How long are these scores? I vaguely remember there was very little score in The Man who knew too much (?).
It was Herrmann's shortest score for Hitchcock, in part because of the reuse of Arthur Benjamin's original Storm Clouds Cantata from the 1934 film, in part because of Doris Day's "Que Sera, Sera" being another musical signature throughout the film. That said Herrmann still wrote some great music for the film (just as Korngold did for his brief final score Devotion, though he DID opt to write an original concert piece in that case).
I would prefer to get the original tracks (as with both Goodwin's and Mancini's scores for Frenzy), but if they no longer exist at Universal I think The Man Who Knew Too Much might make a great double bill with another less famous but more substantial Hitchcock score, like Skinner's Saboteur perhaps. Or another less famous but more substantial Herrmann score, like Endless Night.
Also donated a little... not sure where is all this Hitchcock madness coming from... yet his most requested score is not on the list (FRENZY). How long are these scores? I vaguely remember there was very little score in The Man who knew too much (?).
It is still far more interesting choice than 28th Rozsa's score in a row but hopefully the next one won't be another hitch but something more requested to spice things up.
I also don’t recall a lot of music in Man Who Knew Too Much. As a matter of fact, a number of those unreleased Hitchcock scores are short enough to have some paired on 1 disc. Personally, if I had to choose a Hitchcock score, I probably would have gone with MWKTM if only to have all the Herrmann-Hitchcock scores in at least near-complete form (though it may have to be paired with another score).
John Morgan told me the Friedhofer album that he and Bill Stromberg put out for Marco Polo was one of the worst-selling (if not THE worst-selling) in their entire series. Yavar
So what? Anyone could also say with 100% certainty that there was a disc in Gerhardt's Classic Film Scores series that sold fewer copies than any of the others. But that "worst-selling" Gerhardt disc could still have been a very good seller at the time of its release.
I will admit that I am disappointed by Intrada's first selection. I'm not wild about Tiomkin in general but I particularly dislike his work for Hitchcock.
Yavar
Says the guy who's declared that Mozart is overrated but recommends a mediocrity like Joachim Raff. I'm just glad that Doug and Roger are behind these choices and not you!
In that case Basil I look forward to you funding a series of Friedhofer releases! I promise I will buy every single one, and even pay at least $30 per disc!
But what John told me is that sales were very disappointing (and remember, this was over two decades ago -- they would be much worse today), which was why no further Friedhofer projects were tackled.
I'd never heard of Black Patch until you mentioned it here. Even then, I assumed it must be a pirate movie.
But I have never claimed that Black Patch was anything other than an obscure title. I was simply making the claim (perhaps a *slight* exaggeration, but not to a meaningful degree) that White Feather was an equally obscure title. And in film music land, an obscure Goldsmith title has much better sales potential than an obscure Friedhofer title. Is anyone really going to dispute that fact?
More than any Goldsmith re-recording, I would LOVE a re-recording of Roy Webb's Sinbad the Sailor. But despite being a popular genre (and hoping that sound clips would sell it to anyone who likes Golden Age seafaring swasbuckling music with a vaguely middle eastern flavor) and having "Sinbad" in the title, I'm not going to act like it has greater sales potential than even the most obscure Goldsmith score. That's called being realistic.
Yavar
P.S. to Essankay -- glad I noticed the winkie, but just for fun:
Says the guy who's declared that Mozart is overrated but recommends a mediocrity like Joachim Raff. I'm just glad that Doug and Roger are behind these choices and not you!
Bernard Herrmann shared my opinion and loved that "mediocrity" so much that he funded the first commercial recording of a Raff symphony entirely out of his own pocket. I'm proud to be in his company, and I'll try to get over your low opinion of my taste. Meanwhile I'll continue to recommend Raff to anyone who will listen, so thanks for bringing him up:
In this particular case , are the labels really listening to us ? Over the years on the FSM board , how many times has there been requests for a complete DIAL M FOR MURDER? I'm from Missouri Please show me.
Historic marriage of William Stromberg (Tribute, Naxos) with Intrada! I'm IN!
THIS! It's the marriage of Stromberg and Intrada that I want to support, regardless of the score. Hell, to be honest I probably would have pledged even if this was Shadow of a Doubt, just in the hopes of this union continuing.
In this particular case , are the labels really listening to us ? Over the years on the FSM board, how many times has there been requests for a complete DIAL M FOR MURDER? I'm from Missouri Please show me.
Since you asked, I just did a similar search to Black Patch and the Friedhofer westerns above...
If I'm missing something, I honestly hope someone else will point it out. Maybe robertmro included this on some past Holy Grail list of his own. If he mentioned it I couldn't find it though.
I still wish Intrada success in this venture and will pledge myself. But if this title fails I *really* hope they'll try a different one from their non-Hitchcock list, which has actually been oft-requested, instead. (What do they have to lose from trying?)
They should do a single fundraiser with FOUR titles to choose from. All participants can vote for one of the four and at the end of day, the most voted-for gets re-recorded. All participants agree to honor their pledge regardless of whichever score is eventually voted for. In other words.. if I pledge $25, I get a single vote for one of, say, Joan of Arc, Black Patch, Jungle Book or Dial M For Murder. But I agree that my pledge amount goes to whichever score gets the most votes. Not just more democratic but more fun too, watching the vote tally as the fundraiser progresses. I think this would attract a bigger pool of interested participants, and would give people a sense of real participation in the selection.
Update: Thinking about it, perhaps the voting tally should NOT be revealed until the END of the fundraiser – if someone's personal choice was seen to be many votes behind in an ongoing tally, they might not make a pledge.
Meanwhile I'll continue to recommend Raff to anyone who will listen, so thanks for bringing him up:
Please show me.