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Posted: |
Jun 29, 2004 - 12:58 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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HOW in God's name can you diss OHMSS and it's genre makeover score yet have "no beef" with the horredous Die Another Day and it's pretend Arnold music??
I'm not saying that the Brosnan Bonds are perfect films. But to me, they are far more entertaining than what I've seen so far of the pre-Brosnan ones. There are several reasons for this, most of which I have already touched upon.
The most obvious is that I have no nostalgic relationship to the Bonds films like many of you do. So I'm able to SEE THROUGH all the cheeziness of certain plot holes and film means that you guys forgive because of a certain nostalgic value.
Second of all, the old films are often very slowly paced. Several times, this is something I really enjoy (like ALIEN) because it allows time for the characters to react and to "suck up" the mood. But since Bond pretends to be pure (albeit sophisticated) action, it has to engage on a RHYTHMICAL level as well. And in that sense, I connect more easily with modern action films, since it's closer to my way of perceiving multimedia (much faster). Consequently, the Brosnan Bonds (while perhaps losing some of that old "charm" that people keep talking about), entertain me MORE.
BUT....you were really asking about the music. My "beef" with Barry is not really only his Bond efforts, but his approach in general. His tendency to slow things down when a slow-down is not called for, IMO undermines some of the emotional impact of the film. Sure, he can write some lovely themes, but you have to consider the TEMPO of the film as well.
Also, in the Bond films, there is this tendency to strike you over the head with rapid brass outbursts that don't follow any particular melodic line, and to repeat that throughout action sequences, for example. Some times, I just want to say "SHUSH ALREADY!!" when I hear that. It's an unusual approach, sure, and I certainly respect both Barry and his music. It's just something that doesn't connect with me - as of yet.
Now, Arnold maintains some of those "brass outbursts" in his Bond scores (which is probably why Barry has hailed him as a rightful "heir" to his throne), but often layers them with various orchestral or electronic details and grooves that make them more engaging and interesting for me. In the films, his music adds adrenaline and pulse, but in a sophisticated way.
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After some minor iritation of the generic kind ("How can he have a problem with "Goldfinger?") I find I am now glued to this thread.
It is quite fascinating to read an unvarnished (that is "stripped" of the forgiveness of nostalgia)look back at the Bonds. They are very much of their times, and are frequent victims of their own rush to market.
To think that it comes from our resident retro-cinema contributer. But I would remind you, Thor, that at the time the Connery-Bonds were being made the "action-adventure" genre was dominated by such films as "The Guns of Navaronne," "The Alamo," "The Great Escape," and, later, "Where Eagles Dare." The Bonds changed all that, amping up the thrills, and narrowing the exposition, so that by the time you got to WED, the Bond influence was becoming manifest.
Now, of course, "action/adventure" films are Bond films without the snootiness.
I'm no doubt preaching to the choir, but continue the history lesson, please. This makes for fascinating reading. (Would love to hear your comments on YOLT, my opinion of which was revised considerably a couple of years ago.)
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Posted: |
Jun 29, 2004 - 2:33 PM
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By: |
Dan Hobgood
(Member)
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Oh, God....I haven't felt like this since the last time I read a Dan Hobgood post....
Didn't relevant banter in Pirates of the Caribbean proceed, "You're the worst pirate I've ever heard of!" followed by, "But you have heard of me!"
Oh the effect I have!
DH
P.S: Ironically, I, too, can't imagine how someone couldn't get into the groove of Barry's OHMSS. It would be more accurate to describe the work as "unified," "linear," or "coherent" than "monothematic" [as Jeff Bond did in his Diamonds Are Forever liner notes]--but the point is the same: OHMSS is one masterfully-executed Bond score, in all likelihood its composer's crowning achievement for the franchise and also, perhaps, his finest hour strictly musically speaking.
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Posted: |
Jun 29, 2004 - 7:11 PM
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By: |
c3p007
(Member)
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The most obvious is that I have no nostalgic relationship to the Bonds films like many of you do. So I'm able to SEE THROUGH all the cheeziness of certain plot holes and film means that you guys forgive because of a certain nostalgic value.
Well I would not consider myself to have this nostalgic view (being 24 yrs old), but I can still tell a decent film (Diamonds, OHMSS, YOLT)
From a piece of shit such as Die Another Day.
At least the Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton films had a story that was in some ways possible. At least the crew had to work hard to get any on-set effects to work (which comes across on screen).
At least the screenplays were laiden with ideas, witty dialogue and the actors portaying bond added their own style to the part. All that Brosnan brings is a parody of what he thinks people expect Bond to be like. And quite frankly it's appaling.
Maybe being English I hold this subject in high regard, but this was once the jewel in our film making crown. Now Hollywood has swallowed it up forever it seems.
Back to the point. Just because they are cheesy in places and sometimes have shoddy fx work - that really does not make them bad.
And being young yourself is no reason not to like or understand the films.
I know I studied film studies, but I thought the rules and narrative of a film were easy to spot for anyone. So if that's true then it's glaringly obvious that the newer bonds are toilet water on screen!
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Maybe being English I hold this subject in high regard, but this was once the jewel in our film making crown. Now Hollywood has swallowed it up forever it seems.
Speaking from a former colony, if that was the best film making your ladies and gentlemen could do, GET A NEW JEWEL AND THE CROWN TO GO WITH IT.
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Posted: |
Jun 30, 2004 - 9:56 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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He, he...are those the four horsemen of the apocalypse, Ahem? JUST LET THEM COME! I'll deal with them swiftly and gracefully. 
Jim Wilson:
***To think that it comes from our resident retro-cinema contributer***
Thanks, but I'd like to think of myself of one who likes movies and scores from all eras and all traditions (not only Hollywood).
Now, I'm not saying that the Bond films weren't influential. I'm just saying at this particular time, they don't connect very well with me beyond a mild entertainment value.
By the way, I'd love to comment on YOLT, but as I said before, I MISSED OUT on that when it was showed on Norwegian TV. Hopefully, I'll be able to see it through some other venue down the road.
NOW, on to more pressing matters: I saw DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER for the first time on sunday.
It STILL has some cheesy effects, but not that many, and it was refreshing to have a real-time man fight a la the FROM RUSSIA train fight in that elevator scene where he battles Franks.
I found the murderous gay couple an interesting concept, but it was VERY poorly acted.
A lot of the relationships were too quickly established, and same with crucial plot points. This is a common flaw with the Bond films I've seen so far.
Barry had a couple of his usual UNusual ways of scoring action scenes, such as the desert chase. It's basically just a xylophone and string line that goes on throughout the sequence...it really lacks the OOMPH to move the tension up, and it is not untill the end that he adds those typical brass flurries that have an impact. But then it's too late...
I didn't find the music as grating in this film as some previous ones, though. There were some pretty nice renditions of "Diamonds are Forever" song in various transport sequences and such.
The Blofeld genetic duplicates (and plastic surgery) was a pretty desperate plot point, though.
Again, a somewhat entertaining film, but not more in my book.
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Posted: |
Jun 30, 2004 - 10:22 AM
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By: |
Ghost Of HR
(Member)
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NOW, on to more pressing matters: I saw DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER for the first time on sunday.
It STILL has some cheesy effects, but not that many, and it was refreshing to have a real-time man fight a la the FROM RUSSIA train fight in that elevator scene where he battles Franks.
I found the murderous gay couple an interesting concept, but it was VERY poorly acted.
A lot of the relationships were too quickly established, and same with crucial plot points. This is a common flaw with the Bond films I've seen so far.
Barry had a couple of his usual UNusual ways of scoring action scenes, such as the desert chase. It's basically just a xylophone and string line that goes on throughout the sequence...it really lacks the OOMPH to move the tension up, and it is not untill the end that he adds those typical brass flurries that have an impact. But then it's too late...
I didn't find the music as grating in this film as some previous ones, though. There were some pretty nice renditions of "Diamonds are Forever" song in various transport sequences and such.
The Blofeld genetic duplicates (and plastic surgery) was a pretty desperate plot point, though.
Again, a somewhat entertaining film, but not more in my book.
Believe it or not, I pretty much agree with you on this one Thor! The first 45 minutes of DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER is quite good. I really like the elevator sequence. That really is the peak of the film! When the film hits Vegas, the movie kind of falls apart. The climax of this one is pretty cheesy too.
But I really dig Barry's score. What seperates Barry's scores from say Arnolds, is that Barry gives each film a unique sound. DIAMONDS is quite different than say OHMSS. It's definitly Bond music but it has a feel all it's own. I feel that Arnold's tracks, on the other hand, are interchangable. I could play a track from DIE ANOTHER DAY and then one from TOMORROW NEVER DIES and I bet most would be hard pressed to tell which picture it comes from.
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