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 Posted:   Jul 11, 2007 - 11:42 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)



I never cared for the film mix. It didn't sound organic and seemed very low-fi.
Neil


This was the first film released in Dolby Digital discrete, so it may have had the problems that often accompany new equipment design.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 1:58 AM   
 By:   Pete Apruzzese   (Member)



This was the first film released in Dolby Digital discrete, so it may have had the problems that often accompany new equipment design.


No, Batman *Returns* was the first film to have a wide Dolby Digital release (Star Trek VI had three Dolby Digital prints a year earlier as a test).

 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 2:43 AM   
 By:   theOzman   (Member)

For those interested in the alternate Batman theme that I mentioned in my previous post, go to http://www.sendspace.com/file/m3am18
The theme changes at about 1:02 into the piece.

Enjoy,

- Oz

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 6:48 AM   
 By:   Jesse Hopkins   (Member)

NOTHING is wrong with the sound quality of the CD. Its an amazing recording.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 10:24 AM   
 By:   ahem   (Member)

The "HELL HERE" sequence from BATMAN RETURNS is about the most heavy handed, over laboured, unsubtle, deliriously pretentious fake piece of metaphysical lecturing ever conceived for the screen.

Ah, and what is Batman Returns lecturing?


Well, we're all just ooky cooky, mask-wearing superfreaks, obviously. Those not dressed as S&M/goth versions of animals go to masquerades (or make that "Max-squerade's"- Ugh), and dance to cheesy sax arrangements of Rick James SUPERFREAK (that unintentionally sounds more like the MC Hammer rape). Gee, what insightful subtext. Apparently.

It's as if Daniel Waters overcooked the most poisoned, vile, gone off hot chili imaginable. Burton licked the plate clean, and then sat next to his audience, broke wind for two hours, inhaled and enjoyed every particle.

Funny that Joel Schumacher gets flamed so often for putting pointless neon lights in Gotham- HELL HERE was all Burton...

PS is that 'Lumping?

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 1:15 PM   
 By:   ryankeaveney   (Member)

For those interested in the alternate Batman theme that I mentioned in my previous post, go to http://www.sendspace.com/file/m3am18
The theme changes at about 1:02 into the piece.

Enjoy,

- Oz


This sounds like two simple edits. What's really special about it?

Ryan

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 3:28 PM   
 By:   Eric Sandstrom   (Member)

Well, we're all just ooky cooky, mask-wearing superfreaks, obviously.

And that's the deliriously pretentious fake piece of metaphysical lecturing behind the "HELL HERE" sequence? What mask was Selina wearing during that scene, I wonder?

(I think your has allegory derailed. It's off track.)

... (that unintentionally sounds more like the MC Hammer rape).

Rape? Sounds disturbing.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 3:45 PM   
 By:   ahem   (Member)

Well, we're all just ooky cooky, mask-wearing superfreaks, obviously.

And that's the deliriously pretentious fake piece of metaphysical lecturing behind the "HELL HERE" sequence? What mask was Selina wearing during that scene, I wonder?

(I think your has allegory derailed. It's off track.)


What's off track??

Burton uses the HELL HERE scene as a lame discovery of the mask, his excuse to dumb Catwoman down into yet another Edward Scissorhands style ooky social outcast. Albeit with Kafka wannabe cat transformations/abilities/special powers/cliches/hunger for birds and milk. Maybe it makes him feel like a real auteur? Definitely doesn't feel like a Batman movie, that's for sure. Why do Bruce and Selina "unmask" each other TWICE in the movie, anyhow (under the miseltoe and at the zoo finale)?

Oh, and how convenient that Selina Kyle happens to be linked to Batman out of costume in less than two links, just like every other principal in the movie. Burton/Waters sure made Gotham city feel as tight as the smallest of soundstage sets (and not just in the lazy writing, of course).

So, 'Lumping, how's it flyin'?

 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 4:25 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)



No, Batman *Returns* was the first film to have a wide Dolby Digital release (Star Trek VI had three Dolby Digital prints a year earlier as a test).


You are right.
i stand corrected.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 4:55 PM   
 By:   Eric Sandstrom   (Member)

(I think your has allegory derailed. It's off track.)

I'm sorry, that should have read, "I think your allegory has derailed." Oh, well.

What's off track??

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel like I'm being lectured during that scene -- at all. Nor, do I feel, would any other reasonable viewer.

Burton uses the HELL HERE scene as a lame discovery of the mask, his excuse to dumb Catwoman down into yet another Edward Scissorhands style ooky social outcast.

Yes, "different" = "dumbed down."

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 6:32 PM   
 By:   ahem   (Member)



I'm sorry, but I just don't feel like I'm being lectured during that scene -- at all.


Well naturally- you are the defence! smile


Nor, do I feel, would any other reasonable viewer.


Make that "Tim Burton fan".


Yes, "different" = "dumbed down."


Being a "Batman fan", I felt cheated that Burton/Waters just did an indulgent caricature of themselves and imposed it onto the Batman universe. It's Batman's universe in name only (and even then you've got needless Burton masturbation like Walken's Shreck as principals, not to mention poor Vincent Shiavelli and a monkey).

Andrea Beaumont was "different" (in a good way), reason being she wasn't pretend auteur quirks at the expense of the source material.

Like I've said before, the only thing I felt Nolan got wrong was the one element Burton had to perfection: the score.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 7:34 PM   
 By:   Eric Sandstrom   (Member)

Like I've said before, the only thing I felt Nolan got wrong was the one element Burton had to perfection: the score.

Yeah, Nolan got everything perfect, right down to the mispronunciation of Râ's name.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 8:07 PM   
 By:   Disco Stu   (Member)

Yeah, Nolan got everything perfect, right down to the mispronunciation of Râ's name

If that is the only complaint (and judging by the amount of times it's being mentioned in this thread, it apparently is) you have very little to complain about.
I had to sit through more than a decade of mutilated fetish cack that was initiated by Burton.
"Batman returns" was the worst of the four and that is saying something knowing what it's up against.

Batman begins should have had a different Bruce Wayne, a different Gordon and a different Lucius Fox but its approach was the best of all the films. It explained the technicalities instead of just beating that psychological scarred origin rubbish. Best of all it didn't have the suck awful DC so called great enemies. DC enemies stink like a 5 day old corpse. Want to stop crime Batman? Simple just quit your job and all the obsessives will have no reason to exist anymore. Stupid origins and even worse concepts. From Joker to Riddler to Pengers and Cats: they stank, they stink, they always will stink!
Marvel had only a few interesting superheroes but their enemies were dead on. The enemies didn't have a fixation for the superhero. They were in it for money, power and preferably both.
The seventies had the best Batman stories. There were other enemies than just the same old bag of old bags.
Batman begins had Rha's. Not my favourite not even by a long shot but at least this character was of this earth. A manipulator not a psychotic freak. The whole approach to the material was to bring as much reason and realism to the material as possibly can. To me the best illustrations for that will always be the way Bruce got his weapons (suit, mask, cape, car) but most of all the way they approached the fighting. No fancy stuff but a realistic close combat fighting system without the fancy 360s and kicks.

The music may not have been original but it too did the job. Okay so we've heard it before but it worked and was on the background instead of that loud grandstanding that was in the previous outings.

Too bad the fun doesn't last because from what I gather the next Batman will have that Joker in it again. The lamest most boring piece of time wasting if ever there was one. Batman.. please do the decent thing: gather up the "fearsome foursome", shoot them through the head, decapitate and cremate them so those terminal bore will never return and make room for interesting opponents.
Please do.

Kind regards.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 8:36 PM   
 By:   Oblicno   (Member)

Like I've said before, the only thing I felt Nolan got wrong was the one element Burton had to perfection: the score.

Yeah, Nolan got everything perfect, right down to the mispronunciation of Râ's name.


Maybe he's like Ralph Fiennes. We all know it's pronounced Ralf.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 9:54 PM   
 By:   ryankeaveney   (Member)

Yeah, Nolan got everything perfect, right down to the mispronunciation of Râ's name

If that is the only complaint (and judging by the amount of times it's being mentioned in this thread, it apparently is) you have very little to complain about.


How's this then? In BEGINS, Ra's is running a train through the heart of Gotham rigged with a machine that instantly evaporates all water within range. What then happens to the water that comprises 60-90% of the human body? Why doesn't Batman turn into a freeze-dry? Or for that matter all of the denizens of Gotham that are show with bug eyes as the train hurtles past them?

I always laugh when people say BATMAN BEGINS is the most logical of the BATMAN films when it's villain's plot is the most ridiculous. Give me Mr. Freeze putting the entire town on ice, or penguins with missles strapped to their backs over BEGINS' numb-nuts device!

Ryan

 
 Posted:   Jul 12, 2007 - 11:24 PM   
 By:   theOzman   (Member)

The really odd thing that has always surprised me about the many interpretations of THE BATMAN (correct full title), is that every take on him misses what he originally was all about, and that's, first and foremost, a detective (with a slight psychological disorder that makes him dress up as a bat and fight crime, or course.) The music doesn't even play to this side of him. It's all super hero glitz and full tilt action. At least Elfman's music marinaded the character and film with a sense of gloomy darkness that matched the appropriate gothic tones that stayed true to the characters origins. But there has yet to been a film that's explored the true analytical prowess of the Dark Knight's character, that is supposedly only second to Sherlock Holmes (coming in a strong 3rd would be Benji or Lassie). As far as other Comic Book adaptations, only a handful have been faithful to have gotten it right (and, most likely, were successful because of it). Some of these would be: SUPERMAN, THE ROCKETEER, THE CROW, and perhaps THE ROAD TO PARDITION.

We'll just have to keep waiting and see what comes next. I'd sure like to see a faithful take on Frank Miller's Dark Knight.

- Oz

 
 Posted:   Jul 13, 2007 - 1:07 AM   
 By:   Sigerson Holmes   (Member)

I can't believe no one's mentioned Prince's contribution yet.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but somehow I admire the idea of having one pop musician engaged to do the ENTIRE pop-song score of a movie so much more than cramming the soundtrack with whatever individual songs the music supervisor (and/or his/her staff) believe will help sell the CDs to this summer's crop of teens-with-cash.

Whatever one may think of Prince as a musician, permitting his pop-musical voice to be the ONLY one in the film's underscore (and source music) helped in a small way to create the "world" in which that story took place. (--Though not as much as Elfman's orchestral score, obviously.)

How likely are we to see a one-pop-star-movie-song-score again? It seems so much less likely in the modern commercialized comic book movie business model.

What are some other examples in movie history, by the way? I can't think of other comic book movie examples, but there's "The Graduate," "Jonathan Livingston Seagull," "Harold and Maude," and "Jungle Fever."

Any others?

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 13, 2007 - 2:48 AM   
 By:   Eric Sandstrom   (Member)

If that is the only complaint (and judging by the amount of times it's being mentioned in this thread, it apparently is) you have very little to complain about.

I like Batman Begins, I just felt it was dull and suffered from unmemorable dialogue.

Sadly, my reaction to the film was crippled by high exceptions that were brought on by the screenwriter, who said during a '04 COMICON that Batman Begins will be the ultimate take on Batman. That means better than Batman: Year One. Better than The Animated Series. Everything.

Burton never claimed such a thing. Nor did any of his screenwriters. It was just his take on Batman, which is perfectly fine. Batman and Batman Returns are "Elseworld" stories. Nothing more.

So with that in mind, here are some questions I would raise to anyone who feels that Batman Begins is gospel:

A) Are the villains well-represented in Batman Begins?

Not really. They're passable. But you only really get half their stories. Also, I've seen the movie 4 times now, and I'm still not sure as to what motivates them. A testament to the rocky screenwriting.

B) Does Nolan include Batman's oath to his parents?

No. And that's sad, because it's so important. The oath is what makes Batman, Batman. The selflessness in saying, "no one will go through what I did -- no one dies," is so freakin' heroic. It explains his great resolve, why he doesn't kill, and his unyielding dedication to his holy quest. It would have been so great, as Mask of the Phantasm did, to visually show that Bruce is utterly haunted by his parents, instead of, as Batman Begins does, lazily have Bruce yakking about his deepest personal memories to a near-stranger.

C) How many lines of dialogue can you quote from Batman Begins, as apposed to Batman '89?

I can maybe think of two. In Burton's Batman, nearly every word that the Joker says is a great line.

D) Are any of the action sequences in Begins all that exciting?

Not really. I mean, does anyone think that the Batmobile chase in Batman Begins is more exciting than the one in Batman Returns? Or the hand-to-hand combat for that matter? You can't even see what's going on in Begins. Sloppy.

E) Would the "ultimate Batman" create a loophole to allow a villain to die?

No. And yet, Batman let's Râ's "die" all the same.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 13, 2007 - 4:06 AM   
 By:   Pedestrian Wolf   (Member)



Well, we're all just ooky cooky, mask-wearing superfreaks, obviously. Those not dressed as S&M/goth versions of animals go to masquerades (or make that "Max-squerade's"- Ugh), and dance to cheesy sax arrangements of Rick James SUPERFREAK (that unintentionally sounds more like the MC Hammer rape). Gee, what insightful subtext. Apparently.

It's as if Daniel Waters overcooked the most poisoned, vile, gone off hot chili imaginable. Burton licked the plate clean, and then sat next to his audience, broke wind for two hours, inhaled and enjoyed every particle.

Funny that Joel Schumacher gets flamed so often for putting pointless neon lights in Gotham- HELL HERE was all Burton...

PS is that 'Lumping?


Wow. I was thinking more of the first Batman when I spoke, but I'll play along as all of your complaints against the film seem to prove my point. Much as you hate the film, you created your entire diatribe against Batman Returns by piecing together the various visual and musical details scattered throughout the film. You may find those details trite and obvious, but at least they allowed the film to communicate it's message without resorting to characters flat-out stating that message. And on the whole, I think you're taking the film way too seriously. The "Hell Here" sign and the musak arrangement of "Superfreak" are background details, self-referencial jokes for people who are already into the film. I get the impression that your hatred for the film is less tied to the execution and more with the content itself. If Burton had found a more introverted, elegant, or subtle way of executing his freak-themed take on Batman, would you honestly hate it any less?

Pedestrian Wolf

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 13, 2007 - 10:38 AM   
 By:   ahem   (Member)



How's this then? In BEGINS, Ra's is running a train through the heart of Gotham rigged with a machine that instantly evaporates all water within range. What then happens to the water that comprises 60-90% of the human body? Why doesn't Batman turn into a freeze-dry? Or for that matter all of the denizens of Gotham that are show with bug eyes as the train hurtles past them?

I always laugh when people say BATMAN BEGINS is the most logical of the BATMAN films when it's villain's plot is the most ridiculous. Give me Mr. Freeze putting the entire town on ice, or penguins with missles strapped to their backs over BEGINS' numb-nuts device!

Ryan


Oh please-

Burton's Batman movies didn't even bother with logic-

A toxic gas made from a vague variety of mixed cosmetic products? It's not even consistent- one minute it can add an elongated lipstick grin from a distance, the next it's just destructive and in the finale it's effects can be stopped by a paper particle mask?? And why is the end parade TOTALLY absent of police until the Cathedral scene?? Why does Burton waste our time setting up Lee whatshisface as the mayor and Billy Dee Williams as Dent??? Why establish the DA and mayors hang out as the city hall for the bulk of the movie and then have them totally disappear at the climax set somewhat in front of that building?? Are we not suppose to be following a story and the characters- is this not a narrative film?? It's not a documenatry or an art film is it, so why the inexcusably absent storytelling skills??? Why do they publically announce on TV that Grisson is a crime lord, yet let him go about his business in full view (occupying one of the biggest buildings in gotham)?? It's not even storytelling, it's a flat out incoherent mess.

Then in BATMAN RETURNS there's the blueprints to the Batmobile that appear INEXPLICABLY to aid the "plot"- it's just dumped in randomly- THEN we've got a BEETLEJUICE prop steam roller driven by Vincent Shiavelli and a monkey that is just there to look ooky cooky at the expense of plot because Burton prefers that over story-- again, not a police man in site in what is suppose to be a major metropolis!!! Plus all "first borns" got invited to the Shreck doo, conveniently, and they all live in the same one storey neighbourhood as the remote control Batmobile chase (direction ad scriptwriting are as shoddy as each other)- Oh, and why doesn't anyone think to trace the GAPING HOLE on the floor of Shreck's department store??? Why does the Circus gang apparently have technological wizardry on par if not SUPERIOR to Batman's (they can crack the Batmobile, construct Penguin's stairlift duck car, undeground sewer route tunnels, missiles and umbrella arsenal- had to come from somewhere- train dogs to catch UFOs and can radio control the minds of the Penguin animals!!!) yet we only ever see them squatting like tramps in abandoned attics or zoo water tanks?

And why doesn't Batman talk to Commisoner Gordon when he has full evidence that Penguin is a bad guy??

Hey, I myself found the BATMAN BEGINS water thing dubious too, but face it, it's comparitively scientific excellence compared to Burton's car accident. Plus, the simple fact of the matter is, Tim Burton CANNOT and is in no way interested in telling a story.



I can't believe no one's mentioned Prince's contribution yet.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but somehow I admire the idea of having one pop musician engaged to do the ENTIRE pop-song score of a movie so much more than cramming the soundtrack with whatever individual songs the music supervisor (and/or his/her staff) believe will help sell the CDs to this summer's crop of teens-with-cash.

Whatever one may think of Prince as a musician, permitting his pop-musical voice to be the ONLY one in the film's underscore (and source music) helped in a small way to create the "world" in which that story took place. (--Though not as much as Elfman's orchestral score, obviously.)

How likely are we to see a one-pop-star-movie-song-score again? It seems so much less likely in the modern commercialized comic book movie business model.

What are some other examples in movie history, by the way? I can't think of other comic book movie examples, but there's "The Graduate," "Jonathan Livingston Seagull," "Harold and Maude," and "Jungle Fever."

Any others?


QUEEN's FLASH GORDON.

As a massive Prince fan, I'd like to point out that BATMAN was the worst record he ever made. The tracks are quickly and cheaply churned out, dated, diluted rereads of SIGN O THE TIMES and 1999. It's pretty widely accepted (in Prince fandom) that at the time Prince had lost quite a bit of money on pet projects for his groups like MADHOUSE and THE FAMILY. He needed a quick, hack-job guaranteed hit and also Gubers/Peters who were producing BATMAN had done PURPLE RAIN and wanted a guaranteed hit soundtrack tie in. I remember reading that Prince knocked the album out in less than two months. It's really painful to hear HOUSEQUAKE from SIGN O THE TIMES watered down and turned into the dated for the time PARTY MAN, SIGN O THE TIMES title track turned into SEE THE FUTURE, U GOT THE LOOK melted with 1999 into TRUST- yucrrrggghhhk.

Along with Basinger’s horrendous wardrobe and hair, the Prince songs dated the first BATMAN movie hideously before it was even released.

The best track on the Prince BATMAN soundtrack isn't even in the film!!! Arms of Orion, the duet with Sheena Easton.

Elfman did his best rearranging SCANDALOUS for orchestra, but polishing a turd as we know is a no-go. pity really that Elfman himself didn't have anything to do with the songs (especially as his Boingo routes were relatively fresh AND his Siousie Sioux song from BATMAN RETURNS is a timeless classic, unlike anything heard by Prince in BATMAN).


I mean, does anyone think that the Batmobile chase in Batman Begins is more exciting than the one in Batman Returns?

The worst part is that you AREN'T being sarcastic-

a fully equipped street tank stomping the streets and roofs of an enormous, expansive metropolis-

OR the SHELL of the car from the 1989 movie, moving at 20mph through a blatant ONE LANE Burbank backlot facade of "Gotham", that only contains the same model of Volkswagon car, clearly prerigged on wires?? Oh, but with cutaway shots to Danny Devito shaming Burgess Meredith with his eye on the Razzies...





If Burton had found a more introverted, elegant, or subtle way of executing his freak-themed take on Batman, would you honestly hate it any less?


NO.

Burton put PRIORTY on Shreck and the Circus Gang, characters made up exclusively for the movie. He built the movie around those cheap and lazy ooky cooky stock characters that he had already addressed in his other movies.

I LOVE Daniel Waters early work with Michael Lehmann, but on BR he just went on an autopilot tirade of processed meanspiritedness. Wesley Strick must have made it even worse. On top of that, it was given to a director who CLEARLY isn't interested in telling a story.

For all of Nolan's flaws (David Goyer being one) at least he has made an attempt to address the history of the Batman's universe. He hasn't just abused the brand name as a way to fart out self indulgent, one dimensional, rangeless "auteurship".


You may find those details trite and obvious, but at least they allowed the film to communicate it's message without resorting to characters flat-out stating that message.


Hmmm...:

"You're just Jealous, because I'm a genuine freak, while you have to wear a mask and cape!"

"I believe the word you are looking for is "Aaahh"!"

"Honey, I'm home. Oh, I forgot. I'm not married."

"My name is not Oswald, my name is PENGUIN! I AM NOT A HUMAN BEING! I AM AN ANIMAL! COLD-BLOODED! "

"How can you be so mean to someone so meaningless?"

"As I was saying, I'm a woman and can't be taken for granted. Life's a bitch, now so am I. "


Sorry, no.


Oh- one more thing:

There is one element of Burton's BATMAN (in the 1989 film) that I think Nolan hasn't and probably won't touch, and it regards Burton's strongest point: humour.

The live news death from the first BATMAN movie I consider to be the greatest big screen translation of the kind of thing Miller was doing with BATMAN. It's even laid out like a Miller panel, with the double monitor-- Isolated, that sequence may be the best live action BATMAN moment ever (as far as Miller goes).

 
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