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 Posted:   Oct 20, 2008 - 2:50 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

That would help, no doubt, but it wouldn't fix the fundamental problem. Mickey Mousery.

Furthermore, I don't get a sense of real danger from Newman's music. Only frenzied, kinetic action. There's an element of peril that is missing from Goldsmith's version of the hijacking.


I don't necessarily disagree with that; I just think Goldsmith's score has its fair share of mickey-mousery as well. It's a very traditional score that follows the ebb and flow of the action and editing. It's just that Goldsmith's SOUND is a bit different.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 20, 2008 - 2:55 PM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

I don't necessarily disagree with that; I just think Goldsmith's score has its fair share of mickey-mousery as well. It's a very traditional score that follows the ebb and flow of the action and editing. It's just that Goldsmith's SOUND is a bit different.

I think it is far more than a difference in sound. It's a difference in knowing technically and dramatically how to score such stuff. Goldsmith, through decades of experience and great instinct, knew how to do it much better than Newman did here.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 20, 2008 - 2:56 PM   
 By:   Michael24   (Member)

The problem with Newman's score is not how busy it is (which it certainly is) or how patriotic Goldsmith's seems. It's about fitting the fabric and tone of the sequences and the term Mickey-Mousing does accurately describe the music here, particularly in the hijacking scenes. Goldsmith scored the TEMPO of the sequence, giving a sense of forward motion by means of theme and rhythm while Newman hit's every turn and cut with a blaze of brass and fanfare. He's scoring the obvious, adding an opaque layer directly on top of every visually apparent point. One never gets a sense of the urgency of the situation because Newman is scoring the physical aspects of the movie while Goldsmith (as much as he was allowed) seemed to be scoring the action AS WELL AS the desperation of those in the scene.

Notice the moment when the American fighter jets arrive. Newman scores it as if the cavalry has just come to the rescue. There's no reason for anyone to feel that way. Goldsmith, on the other hand, gives the same moment a tough "on mission" quality which highlights the progression of the action.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ms4hzslS74


You pretty much hit the nail on the head there. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 20, 2008 - 3:08 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I think it is far more than a difference in sound. It's a difference in knowing technically and dramatically how to score such stuff. Goldsmith, through decades of experience and great instinct, knew how to do it much better than Newman did here.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with that. I'm not really concerned with better or worse in the first place, but more in APPROACH. As I pointed out earlier, Goldsmith's score was a BAD choice for the film, but "accidentally" made it a FUN romp that went overboard in all departments. Newman's was less patriotic, but more "functional". So that's another subtle difference between the two that moves beyond "sound". In both cases, though, did they approach it as an action film, with close-cut musical synchronization to editing and narrative - lots of percussion, brass outbursts, even mickey-mousing, brief outbursts of main themes or motifs.

I simply don't see how Newman's score can be considered wrong for the "tone" of the film or whatever when his approach wasn't very different from Goldsmith. The difference between the two scores are in other areas.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 20, 2008 - 3:15 PM   
 By:   jonathan_little   (Member)

Get Radek sounds like an intro to a 1970s telefilm. The hijacking sequence is Randy Newman doing a Max Steiner impression. Notes, notes, and more notes! And yeah, the mickey mousing doesn't help any.

I agree with the earlier posters; Newman scored each shot, while Goldsmith scored the entire sequences.

 
 Posted:   Oct 20, 2008 - 5:06 PM   
 By:   johnmullin   (Member)

I actually think Randy's cues work better against the picture than Goldsmith's do, although I think Goldsmith's work better as take-away music.

I also think Randy wrote knowing that the music would be in there with a good deal of sound design and other noise, and it's hard to judge how it might work in a proper mix unless we could magically hear it that way. I think his version is a little more detailed and sophisticated, though, and I would have rather seen the picture with his music in it than Goldsmith's. In general terms, I see it as Jerry having scored the heroism, and Randy having scored the nightmare. Part of that, of course, does involve a lot of musical busyness that might be more at home in animation.

Nevertheless, I watched part of the film again on TNT not too long ago, and heroism is one thing the picture could have stood to pull back on.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 10:23 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I actually think Randy's cues work better against the picture than Goldsmith's do, although I think Goldsmith's work better as take-away music.

I also think Randy wrote knowing that the music would be in there with a good deal of sound design and other noise, and it's hard to judge how it might work in a proper mix unless we could magically hear it that way. I think his version is a little more detailed and sophisticated, though, and I would have rather seen the picture with his music in it than Goldsmith's. In general terms, I see it as Jerry having scored the heroism, and Randy having scored the nightmare. Part of that, of course, does involve a lot of musical busyness that might be more at home in animation.

Nevertheless, I watched part of the film again on TNT not too long ago, and heroism is one thing the picture could have stood to pull back on.


Good points. I agree entirely.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 11:16 AM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

Well, to each his own. What's next Mutant? BTW, thanks for doing this.

 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 11:31 AM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

Well, to each his own. What's next Mutant? BTW, thanks for doing this.

My pleasure.
Next up will be the cue "Don't Touch This" aka: The Motorcade scene.
It's uploading now. I will post the link in about 30 min.

After Air Force One is finished, I might tackle Shore's RANSOM.
Any requests? (anything but a FOX title)

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 11:43 AM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

Well, to each his own. What's next Mutant? BTW, thanks for doing this.

My pleasure.
Next up will be the cue "Don't Touch This" aka: The Motorcade scene.
It's uploading now. I will post the link in about 30 min.

After Air Force One is finished, I might tackle Shore's RANSOM.
Any requests? (anything but a FOX title)


If you could get around to Eaters of the Dead (AKA the 13th Warrior) with Greame Revel's music.

 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 12:12 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

New clip online!

"The Motorcade" (aka Don't Touch This)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ou5IwrS78k

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 12:34 PM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

Interesting. In this case I agree with Thor in that it is essentially the same approach that Goldsmith was directed to take. The biggest difference is that while Goldsmith's sounds like American patriotic pomp Newman's sounds like English royalty pomp.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 7:05 PM   
 By:   c8   (Member)

I think I figured it out after listening to The Motorcade (Newman's version made me cringe, btw).

It sounds like Bernstein's Airplane!

That's NOT something a movie like Air Force One should sound like! Newman approached it like a parody. That's why it failed.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 7:28 PM   
 By:   franz_conrad   (Member)

I think for all the talk about Goldsmith's music being over-the-top, that Newman 'Motorcade' is clearly MORE over-the-top. It's like watching an animated film. Goldsmith's theme for the motorcade at least gave it something like a straightforward hymnal melody. Before I bought into the charade that this film took itself seriously, now - and the 'Airplane!' comparison is apt - I'm wondering when Leslie Nielsen will bound into the frame.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 21, 2008 - 7:52 PM   
 By:   HAL 2000   (Member)


It sounds like Bernstein's Airplane!


LOL!

 
 Posted:   Oct 22, 2008 - 4:02 AM   
 By:   mastadge   (Member)

I've only watched the first clip, and while the music is entirely wrong for the film, I find that the music tends to get more play from me than Goldsmith's does. It's busy fun action music that doesn't sound like Goldsmith, and seeing as I've zero other Randy Newman action scores and about a zillion other Goldsmith action scores, that's a good thing!

 
 Posted:   Oct 22, 2008 - 4:48 AM   
 By:   The Cat   (Member)

What's with the quotation of "Ode to Joy"? smile

 
 Posted:   Oct 22, 2008 - 6:28 AM   
 By:   random guy   (Member)

what was wrong with the music? the action writing on "Hijacked" was amazing. low end pianos and bold brass sections.

you people are amazing. and there is a strong theme that flows throughout the cue so the lack of thematic quality or whatever some posters were complaining about is baffling to me

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 22, 2008 - 8:45 AM   
 By:   Jeff M   (Member)

Firstly, thanks for doing these Mutant! The stuff on Timeline was a joy to see as well. As far as Newman's score, I'm really impressed... I remember being less excited about it just listening to Newman's music outside the film.

Here's my breakdown:

Newman's score strikes me as more of a classic style of film scoring. Color wise, it sounds like the things John Williams was doing in the 70's/80's with starwars and indiana jones, unabashedly, musically, classically "present," or, emulating things from the golden as people put it (which really was heavily "referencing" classical ideas, Stravinsky and so on.)

Goldsmith I would say, uses a much more modern approach... and by modern I mean a score that references Goldsmithian notions of heroism and drama, as opposed to Newman who is referencing A jangolistic, CLASSICAL, recognizable patriotic musical idea, both melodic and orchestral... something you might actually hear at a political rally, where as goldsmith's music is something you're only going to here in a movie, in a hyper hightened dramatic setting. (which by the way, is why we all* (almost all) love Goldsmith's score more)

As far as these clips show though, these two scores seem to be SPOTTED and TIMED almost IDENTICALLY.

Where are Bryan Tyler's score in Timeline deviated heavily in it's emphasis on where and how the drama was happening (to a much blander effect I felt) Newman's and Goldsmith's score's here are shockingly similar.

Just watch the motorcade and you'll see all the hit points, drama points, and tone shifts are pretty much the same... for those who accuse Newman of Mickey Mousing, Goldsmith is pretty much hitting the same changes and beat's that Newman's does, it's just the flavor (as people have mentioned) of Goldsmith's score, which injects so much damn dignity into everything... but that is where Goldsmith was really a master and pioneer of the artform.

I'm not surprised people say this film is serious, and that Newman didn't really fit the tone... but I have to say, I think the seriousness wasn't necessarily inherent to the film, though it certainly might be what everyone WANTED. I think Goldsmith created that tone, much as it might not have existed before. Some people take action movies seriously, I do, but by their nature, most people aren't going to give an action movie an ounce of serious thought.

So much of what Goldsmith did for films, he so often dismissed the films themselves as silly crap, and I would think how in the hell? But though Jerry might have SAID those things, he'd treat the music in the opposite way. So how much of that seriousness was Goldsmith vs what the film had to offer?

Most of the time I'd say it was Goldsmith doing least 90 percent of the work. Certainly, by example, in Star Wars, with Williams, the music is doing 100 % percent of the work on that emotional level. The film might have looked like silly crap when Goldsmith first watched it, but by the time he was through scoring it, you sure as hell believed in it.

On the other hand, I still feel like Newman's score makes the movie really fun... dare I use the word camp... I don't think the tone is wrong, it's just very different... but almost more classically cinematic, like something from the 50s. (the problem IS, of course, that air force one takes place in the 90s.)

Where as Goldsmith in this film is making you believe in the nobility of Harisson Ford every two seconds, Newman is really telling you about it, in a heightened musically language... and I kind of like it. He's putting the 50s into the 90s... and it's fun.

Apples and Oranges... but in the end, I'd go with Goldsmith... though the point is, this is really just a great example of how the tone of a movie ultimately gets COMPLETELY set by the music.

Goldsmith wasn't doing what was appropriate for this particular film, so much as he was doing what he always did best for films-that-run-the-risk-of-being-considered-stupid, he makes you BELIEVE they aren't.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 22, 2008 - 9:36 AM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

^^^ Good points. Both scores lessen the absurdity of the film by giving it the straight-faced treatment... only I think Goldsmith's is far more successful art it. Some of the posted clips with Newman's score border on laughable for me.

It's an action movie, no more no less, and I think the direction to both composers were to amp up the action as much as allowed. I think that was the proper direction.

Now what would have really been silly is if when guys get shot, such as in the hijacking sequence, they fall down in slo-mo to the voice of the wailing woman as white doves flutter away in the background.

 
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