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Peter, you really are a stand-up guy.
And nice autograph you've got there!
The few of you on this board and in real life who have met, seem to enjoy my sillyness and I'm always eager to help out ANYONE on this board with anything!! Thanks for the nice comment man!!
I do love my autographs and I love seeing other peoples too. I don't see it as bragging when someone shows me theirs or what not. Now if someone showed me that Vanity Fair photo from a few years ago with ALL the composers signed by each one, well yah, I would find out where they lived and offer my soul for it!!!! LOL
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2010 - 12:05 AM
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By: |
i86time
(Member)
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Okay, I won't tell you. But they very likely were right.
Yes, somebody paid $610 for a collector's item. What does that prove? Nothing at all, except that somebody has a lot of disposable income and likes Michael Giacchino, "Up," or just rare movie memorabilia. What it definitely does not prove is that there is any general interest in this score on CD. Do not let the echo chamber that is this message board mislead you into believing there's widespread demand.
What about the other 3 FYC promo's that sold on ebay from $225 to $300? Sure, there may have been only 9 bidders in these last 2 auctions, but keep in mind once a bid goes beyond the typical $15 for a cd, a lot of bidders simply can't afford/justify it. There's serious interest in this score (just check out various Disney, Pixar and other film score forums). While some of it may be from those interested in rare memorabilia, it mostly has to do with the music and the film.
What's even more shocking is that after this C&C and the 4 FYC's that have sold within the last month, there isn't more! It takes what, 10 minutes to do an EAC rip or and ISO backup? Who's to say that C&C disc won't end up back on ebay in a week or so.
I would love to have an original of either disc, my request in the Trading Post forum is still unanswered  , but I would rather just be able to listen to a complete, lossless version - disc or files. Many others feel the same way after how Disney decided to treat this score (truncated, download only and lossy). And you're right, those auction winners have more disposable income than others, but it doesn't mean this score isn't appreciated on it's own merit rather than its rarity. Maybe an Oscar or Grammy will set the wheels in motion for a wide release, if the Mouse's execs can admit they were wrong.
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2010 - 12:19 AM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Please don't misunderstand me -- I wish there were a CD, and I would buy one. I just disagree with the premise that Disney made a huge financial mistake and heads should roll for this grievous error. No one would deny that there are hardcore collectors who will pay big bucks for an extreme rarity.
Let me put it this way -- if Disney had made big bucks from the last previous Giacchino/Pixar score to have a CD ("Ratatouille"), they would certainly have released "Up" that way, too. I would never contend that there aren't people who would gladly buy a CD if one were available, being one of those people myself. The question is, are there enough? And will the CD retailers who remain stock it? These are business decisions. Yes, they have lost some sales by not putting out a physical CD, as some people just won't buy a download. Some here see that as evidence that they've left money on the table. But if the costs involved in catering to that group -- those who want the score, but on CD only -- exceeds the slim money to be made there, then they have made no profit.
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Besides… and this is vital to remember… as far as Disney is concerned, they did release the score. They have a much larger chance of making a profit off of it if all they're doing is hosting digital files. So the idea that they "left money on the table" is not really taking into account the huge amount of impulse sales possible (both the album and individual tracks) on a download-only release, but I understand how it wouldn't be plausible for a larger company.
I would rather have this score complete and lossless, just like everyone else here. But I also know that we're a small and rather demanding group in the larger context. As was once pointed out, our community is numbered in the low thousands, a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of people a day walking into the Magic Kingdom.
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2010 - 1:06 PM
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By: |
antipodean
(Member)
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The question is, are there enough? And will the CD retailers who remain stock it? These are business decisions. Yes, they have lost some sales by not putting out a physical CD, as some people just won't buy a download. Some here see that as evidence that they've left money on the table. But if the costs involved in catering to that group -- those who want the score, but on CD only -- exceeds the slim money to be made there, then they have made no profit.
The difference is that if the record executives do the numbers and say, "if we release such-and-such an album, we estimate that we'll sell X numbers domestic US and worldwide over 12 months, and based on that we estimate a profit of $Z dollars" and then they decide not to have a physical release because a profit of $Z is too paltry and "not worth the effort", then of course it's a bad business decision because any profit is a profit.
A compelling reason, then, for them not to do a physical release is if they also do the comparative numbers on a downloads-only album and work out that a downloads-only album costs less overhead and thus generates more profit. But then that doesn't make any sense, because weren't they giving away the downloads for free at one point, as some sort of promotion?
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2010 - 1:24 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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they decide not to have a physical release because a profit of $Z is too paltry and "not worth the effort", then of course it's a bad business decision because any profit is a profit.
But the fact that some people purchase a CD does not alone make that CD profitable. It just doesn't. Any time you bring any product to market, you start out spending money -- manufacturing, shipping, sales, returns, and on and on -- and only once enough sell to make up that cost do you start seeing profit. I'm sure you know this, but a lot of people seem to forget it.
As for any profit being profit, let me ask you: If you're driving along the freeway and you see a dollar bill on the shoulder as you pass, do you get off at the next exit, go back the other way, get back on the freeway, and then pull over onto the shoulder, get out of your car, and grab that filthy dollar? Or is it not worth the effort to you? It is, after all, profit.
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:08 PM
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By: |
antipodean
(Member)
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As for any profit being profit, let me ask you: If you're driving along the freeway and you see a dollar bill on the shoulder as you pass, do you get off at the next exit, go back the other way, get back on the freeway, and then pull over onto the shoulder, get out of your car, and grab that filthy dollar? Or is it not worth the effort to you? It is, after all, profit.
But if you factor the costs of gas and time, and it costs me more than a dollar to drive around to retrieve it (and I value my time very highly), then it's not profitable.
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They could've at least offered it in lossless format or allowed Intrada to do a limited number of CDs IMO.
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2010 - 10:13 AM
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By: |
i86time
(Member)
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I think the thing that is most odd is how they chose to handle this download only release - namely a lossy, truncated score. Although the limit of space on physical media usually prevents an entire score or score / soundtrack combo on a single CD, there is no such limitation for downloads. As it is clear the score had already been mixed (C&C CD given out at wrap), why wasn't the full score offered as a download? Also, since this was offered on iTunes as non-DRM files and mp3's have no DRM at all (Amazon), offering a .flac version could not have increased piracy. They just chose to go the easy way out and they are getting the backlash, and that involves people wanting a more complete, lossless version.
And considering that impulse buys probably comprise the majority of WD Parks sales, not having a CD on shelves when a kid (or adult) walks by is just plain detrimental. But it's not just the score for this film. Every time that I dared venture into a store with my 3 year old @ DL or DCA over the past 6 months, the only UP item we could ever find was the Dug plush. I was told they sold out of nearly all the items long ago and the last time they got anything in was a couple months ago (and that was the Dug plush). Perhaps Disney just underestimated this film?
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2010 - 6:40 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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I think the thing that is most odd is how they chose to handle this download only release - namely a lossy, truncated score. Although the limit of space on physical media usually prevents an entire score or score / soundtrack combo on a single CD, there is no such limitation for downloads. As it is clear the score had already been mixed (C&C CD given out at wrap), why wasn't the full score offered as a download? Also, since this was offered on iTunes as non-DRM files and mp3's have no DRM at all (Amazon), offering a .flac version could not have increased piracy. They just chose to go the easy way out and they are getting the backlash, and that involves people wanting a more complete, lossless version.
I think I'm coming off as a big pill in this thread. And as somebody who would have loved an "Up" CD, I'm also hurting my own cause.
Nonetheless…
Why not release the entire score? Two reasons. One, reuse fees still apply. Two, it is only we obsessives who spend our days on this board (and a few others) who insist on every note being released. Most people who are interested in buying music do so to listen, not to own an archive of an entire score. There have been many, many debates on this board whether a complete presentation on album is the ideal way for a score to exist outside of the film, and I have no desire to start that up again here. Suffice it to say, many composers and album producers do believe that their work plays best with some judicious pruning.
As for lack of .flac, it is simply not an option that iTunes or Amazon offers. An iPod can't even play .flac files (nor can a Zune, for that matter), though an iPod can play Apple Lossless files. Again, though, this is something that doesn't seem to be a dealbreaker for many people. iTunes is the #1 music seller, and while CDs are still the dominant medium, their share is only 65% of music sold, and slipping. This backlash you speak of barely exists, the occasional rant on boards like this notwithstanding.
I've said this before, but if you really want to know how our tiny community would be viewed by people who don't share our passion, go to a fan board for any other fandom or hobby, something you don't care about. There, you will find equally disgruntled people who believe they speak for the public at large, and you'll think they're loony. I remember years ago reading a post on the Game Show Network boards written by a game show fanatic who believed that his righteous indignation about a show GSN was running was so widespread that the president of the network was going to be fired over the repercussions. He wasn't, and last I checked, the show was still running. I think we need to have a little perspective on ourselves, too.
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Another UP promo sold on ebay for $465.00 today.
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2010 - 10:27 PM
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By: |
antipodean
(Member)
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Well that's just the point, isn't it? Your time is valuable, and finite, and could be better spent on more profitable things. The same is true of a company. Their time and resources are finite. And a Hannah Montana CD will be very profitable. Would the score for "Up" be? No. It might make some profit. Might. (Might not, too.) But if you've got to choose where to spend your finite time and resources, what would be your priority?
But I'm not Disney, you see. I have no shareholders to report on my quarterly earnings to; Disney executives do, and indeed, making profit for the company is their responsibility. As for whether a physical CD for "Up" would have been profitable or not, you can get an indication from previous releases - for example, did "Cars" and "Ratatouille" and "The Incredibles" take a bath in red ink as music CD releases? (I don't know myself, but somehow I don't think they did.)
If Disney executives, as you point out, did the numbers exercise and came to the conclusion that a physical CD release would only be "$X dollars" profit and thus not worth the effort (compared to the bajillion dollars they make from other franchises), then it's just too bad for them because people like me would have gladly paid to own a legitimate commercially-produced CD.
Since the soundtrack is not available as a legitimate download on Amazon/iTunes/BigPond to where I live (last I checked anyway), either I'll just have to do without - or do the unmentionable to get the music (and for free) - and I'm sure many in a similar situation have chosen the latter option. Ultimately the loss is Disney's (not that they'll notice, apparently.)
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