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 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 7:10 AM   
 By:   waxmanman35   (Member)

Douglass Fake made some very valid points about loudness and normalization when it comes to recording orchestral music, and I do agree with his general aversion to excessive loudness compression<>

Fake hasn't demonstrated those points regarding the Tadlow. It's just his opinion. The sound waveforms don't suggest compression or hard-limiting, and "normalization" in itself doesn't distort. It sounds like a case of "I could have done it better" sniping. Physician, heal thyself. The Intrada "Spellbound" sounds like something Mantovani might have recorded. But that's just my opinion.

 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 7:34 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)



Do not let the comments above change your mind about purchasing the Tadlow QUO VADIS. It is a monumental score and Recording! While I too enjoy the Rozsa Vocalion album there really is no comparison.


Yes, it is a dream come true that somebody dared to venture out and record a splendid QUO VADIS like that.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 8:07 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)


I agree. I think that that James Fitzpatrick did a great job.

But I will also defend Basil's and Mr. Fake's right to express a reasonable opinion for which they feel they have ample justification.


I made that mild rebuke earlier about Doug Fake’s criticism, which was really aimed at record producers in general. Whilst Mr Fake is obviously entitled to his own opinion about QUO VADIS, the point is that he is not just another anonymous forum "scribbler". He is the CEO of Intrada and when he writes on the Intrada public website he is de facto stating Intrada policy. I simply don’t think it’s good strategy or even good manners for one business to imply faults with the product of another - especially in what is a tight-knit film music community where the main players tend to know each other. In my business dealings I was always taught to refrain from commenting both positively or negatively about the competition and in any case the motive for any comment could easily be misconstrued. I'm sure that James Fitzpatrick would not make similar public criticisms about recordings from another label and I see that he has maintained a discreet silence.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 2:06 PM   
 By:   Loverozsa   (Member)

Considering his position, Mr. Fake needs to be professional and keep his mouth shut.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 2:28 PM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)


I agree. I think that that James Fitzpatrick did a great job.

But I will also defend Basil's and Mr. Fake's right to express a reasonable opinion for which they feel they have ample justification.


I made that mild rebuke earlier about Doug Fake’s criticism, which was really aimed at record producers in general. Whilst Mr Fake is obviously entitled to his own opinion about QUO VADIS, the point is that he is not just another anonymous forum "scribbler". He is the CEO of Intrada and when he writes on the Intrada public website he is de facto stating Intrada policy. I simply don’t think it’s good strategy or even good manners for one business to imply faults with the product of another - especially in what is a tight-knit film music community where the main players tend to know each other. In my business dealings I was always taught to refrain from commenting both positively or negatively about the competition and in any case the motive for any comment could easily be misconstrued. I'm sure that James Fitzpatrick would not make similar public criticisms about recordings from another label and I see that he has maintained a discreet silence.


When I read this, I thought...geez how boring this world would be! I find the most interesting feedback comes from the professionals in this business. Doug was writing about a larger issue that he feels is worth bringing to everyone's attention and cited QUO VADIS as an example. The example is not based on consumer software you can download but professional studio gear and professional ears that nothing can hide from. Frankly, I find feedback from my colleagues more valuable than feedback from the forums. Since they are in the business, usually have expertise, I always find their input worth considering. Let's be honest, most of you are not trained musicians, are not engineers, do not understand the intricacies of producing an album. You know what you like and don't like, but that's about it. I heard some of the louder passages of Quo Vadis on the studio monitors and it made my head hurt. The instruments were just tripping all over each other in a pool of distortion. The performance is first rate, it's the engineering that went a little crazy. Sure some of you say it sounds great to you, but if you heard it without the compression you might think it sounded even greater. And who knows what James is thinking. Maybe he just turned the engineer loose and didn't think about it. Maybe he reads Doug's comments and thinks, "Hmm...that's a good point." Or perhaps he thinks, "True, but this is the sound I was after." But he might not have given it any thought if another professional didn't raise the topic, and that would be tragic. It should stimulate intellectual discussion and thought, not defensiveness. If James said to me he liked our SPELLBOUND recording but felt the tempo of the main title was just too sluggish, I would be the first to say...you're right. And I'd say it shouldn't have been the first thing we recorded because the orchestra was cold. The only time one's professional insight is an issue is for the person who has a big ego and just shuts the input down without at least giving it some consideration. Don't you guys WANT to hear about the competing philosophies from the different guys in the business and build your own expertise and feedback off of that? Or do you want that censored as Doug suggests?

So to those who think Doug's comments were an attack or unprofessional, I think that's too shallow and easy way to look at it. James can do what he likes with that input, and I think he's above being ruffled by them -- he is a professional after all. But don't let that overshadow the number of other Tadlow recordings we're crazy about as well.

Of course, I'm a professional as well and perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut.

 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 2:52 PM   
 By:   Mike Skerritt   (Member)

Frankly, I find feedback from my colleagues more valuable than feedback from the forums.

THE HELL YOU SAY

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 3:11 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)


When I read this, I thought...geez how boring this world would be! I find the most interesting feedback comes from the professionals in this business. Doug was writing about a larger issue that he feels is worth bringing to everyone's attention and cited QUO VADIS as an example.

I'm a professional as well and perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut.


No, you shouldn't have--whatever the general reaction. It's natural you would find more value in the opinions of your colleagues, and this kind of feedback tends to set the boat right. Now we have a better basis for discussion.

Personally I too find the sound on Quo Vadis a little hard to listen to, but I don't hear it as a dynamics or distortion thing: it just seems a little hard and hollow. I didn't know quite what to make of it--and frankly, the music and performances are so good I've tried to ignore it. But now I'm curious and would like to know what other professionals think.

And for that matter, how many posters here even have the sort of equipment that would show up these problems? People often post when sound quality matters are raised that they hear nothing wrong, but what are they listening on? It's been suggested that those professional CD reviewers who never seem to find any problem with sound quality (i.e. The Gramophone) listen on table radios, and I'm wondering if there aren't a few amateur reviewers here in the same boat.

 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 4:29 PM   
 By:   Maleficio   (Member)


When I read this, I thought...geez how boring this world would be! I find the most interesting feedback comes from the professionals in this business. Doug was writing about a larger issue that he feels is worth bringing to everyone's attention and cited QUO VADIS as an example. The example is not based on consumer software you can download but professional studio gear and professional ears that nothing can hide from. Frankly, I find feedback from my colleagues more valuable than feedback from the forums. Since they are in the business, usually have expertise, I always find their input worth considering. Let's be honest, most of you are not trained musicians, are not engineers, do not understand the intricacies of producing an album. You know what you like and don't like, but that's about it. I heard some of the louder passages of Quo Vadis on the studio monitors and it made my head hurt. The instruments were just tripping all over each other in a pool of distortion. The performance is first rate, it's the engineering that went a little crazy. Sure some of you say it sounds great to you, but if you heard it without the compression you might think it sounded even greater. And who knows what James is thinking. Maybe he just turned the engineer loose and didn't think about it. Maybe he reads Doug's comments and thinks, "Hmm...that's a good point." Or perhaps he thinks, "True, but this is the sound I was after." But he might not have given it any thought if another professional didn't raise the topic, and that would be tragic. It should stimulate intellectual discussion and thought, not defensiveness. If James said to me he liked our SPELLBOUND recording but felt the tempo of the main title was just too sluggish, I would be the first to say...you're right. And I'd say it shouldn't have been the first thing we recorded because the orchestra was cold. The only time one's professional insight is an issue is for the person who has a big ego and just shuts the input down without at least giving it some consideration. Don't you guys WANT to hear about the competing philosophies from the different guys in the business and build your own expertise and feedback off of that? Or do you want that censored as Doug suggests?

So to those who think Doug's comments were an attack or unprofessional, I think that's too shallow and easy way to look at it. James can do what he likes with that input, and I think he's above being ruffled by them -- he is a professional after all. But don't let that overshadow the number of other Tadlow recordings we're crazy about as well.

Of course, I'm a professional as well and perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut.


It's always great to read the insights of the professionals in the know!

Please don't stop!

 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 4:36 PM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

Considering his position, Mr. Fake needs to be professional and keep his mouth shut.


Shutting his mouth won't help. The only way to avoid the horrible congestion in the loud passages of Conan the Barbarian and (to a slightly lesser extent) Quo Vadis, is to shut one's ears.

In any case, who said criticism is aimed at Mr. Fitzpatrick, who has produced so many magnificent recordings for us over the years? The releases are from Prometheus aren't they? One assumes they have a say in the mastering, and sign off on it after a full audition.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2014 - 8:34 PM   
 By:   paul rossen   (Member)

Maybe it's my ears. Maybe my advancing years. Maybe the system I'm using but I don't hear the problems that the folks at Intrada and others are hearing.

To my ears this is a great recording of a film music masterwork. Period.

I also believe that the harping by producers on an open forum doesn't do anyone any good. Couldn't the criticisms being thrown at Tadlow be conveyed privately?

I've never heard Spielberg complaining about a Scorsese film at least not in an open forum. Oh well.

Like many recordings what one hears may be system dependent.

 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 12:22 AM   
 By:   Chris Rimmer   (Member)

Maybe it's my ears. Maybe my advancing years. Maybe the system I'm using but I don't hear the problems that the folks at Intrada and others are hearing.

To my ears this is a great recording of a film music masterwork. Period.

Like many recordings what one hears may be system dependent.


Well I listen on a Panasonic stereo system, through Sennheiser Headphones and I honestly can't hear any of the distortion that some people have reported.

As far as Quo Vadis is concerned, I consider this one of the greatest re-recordings of all time, I can't hear anything wrong with it, maybe my 61 year old ears aren't as sharp as some of you younger folks ears on this forum, but they usually pick up distortion and other anomalies which annoy me intensely and they don't pick up any problems with either Conan or Quo Vadis.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 12:43 AM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

And yet, when two experienced record producers, as well as a veteran member here on the forum, both hear the same problem, you would tend to think there was something in it.

Whether it's an actual fault or mistake, or something deliberately engineered for effect, is another matter, as is the question of whether it should be discussed in an open forum rather than a producer's round table. Personally I find the subject fascinating, a glimpse behind the scenes as it were. It gives me renewed interest in the product. Far from putting me off, if I did not already own it I'd be itching to buy it to see which side I came down on. I can't see that anyone should be put off, since we're talking relative subtleties here. And the performances and the music itself are so good there's really not much alternative. The '77 recording? It's fine as a suite, but I never really felt it had much to do with the music in the film. If you want that, you must buy this.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 6:57 AM   
 By:   waxmanman35   (Member)

[startquote
Let's be honest, most of you are not trained musicians, are not engineers, do not understand the intricacies of producing an album. You know what you like and don't like, but that's about it.


What high-handed, arrogant, pontificating, offensive drivel. Your opinion - and of those "engineers" et al are only subjective opinions, not the word of god or that of the ultimate arbiter elegantarium. Those "musically clueless" forum members you dissed are the ones who buy Intrada products.

 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 7:30 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)


Let's be honest, most of you are not trained musicians, are not engineers, do not understand the intricacies of producing an album. You know what you like and don't like, but that's about it.



What high-handed, arrogant, pontificating, offensive drivel. Your opinion - and of those "engineers" et al are only subjective opinions, not the word of god or that of the ultimate arbiter elegantarium. Those "musically clueless" forum members you dissed are the ones who buy Intrada products.


Well, I dunno... when I look at it from a personal point of view, Roger is absolutely right.

- I am not a trained musician.
- I am not an engineer.
- I do not understand the intricacies of producing an album, I only know about it in a general way.
- I do know what I like and don't like


So I don't find any of this high-handed personally, because it is a fairly accurate assessment.

I have lived pretty much my entire life so far without being either a trained musician or an engineer, nor have I produced any record albums, and it was still a pretty darn good life so far.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 8:34 AM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)

Let's be honest, most of you are not trained musicians, are not engineers, do not understand the intricacies of producing an album. You know what you like and don't like, but that's about it.


What high-handed, arrogant, pontificating, offensive drivel. Your opinion - and of those "engineers" et al are only subjective opinions, not the word of god or that of the ultimate arbiter elegantarium. Those "musically clueless" forum members you dissed are the ones who buy Intrada products.


This kind of comment provides a good example of a major issue with this forum: people are so quick to read an attack into a comment and dispense with the context. The point was not to belittle anyone. Remember -- I was responding to comments that professionals should be "silenced." My question back was did you really want to tune out those that had more in depth background and just converse with those with like backgrounds? I had a Facebook friend once unfriend everyone who voted for Obama in the last election just so she could surround herself with like-minded ultra conservatives. A move that I thought couldn't get more anti-intellectual.

Regarding the distortion the people aren't hearing. Distortion comes in many forms and you may be listening for the kind you grew up with -- sound breaking up on LPs in louder passages. This is a different kind and I described it somewhat above, but it would be easier to explain with a before/after example. The best I can come up with here is to compare our Thor 2 album with what you hear in the film. As others have noted, Brian likes his albums normalized and Thor 2 is no exception. Listen to the score in the film (in fact, just the Marvel logo will do) and you can hear the clear dynamic range. Listen to the album and that clarity is gone in a mush of distortion.

 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 8:43 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

I had a Facebook friend once unfriend everyone who voted for Obama in the last election just so she could surround herself with like-minded ultra conservatives. A move that I thought couldn't get more anti-intellectual.

I dunno...I don't follow anyone on Twitter who doesn't share my political beliefs or supports the same football team as mewink

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 8:46 AM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)

I had a Facebook friend once unfriend everyone who voted for Obama in the last election just so she could surround herself with like-minded ultra conservatives. A move that I thought couldn't get more anti-intellectual.

I dunno...I don't follow anyone on Twitter who doesn't share my political beliefs or supports the same football team as mewink


Totally different. On Facebook you can have a discussion and debate to explore the issues.

 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 8:49 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

I dunno...I don't follow anyone on Twitter who doesn't share my political beliefs or supports the same football team as mewink

Totally different. On Facebook you can have a discussion and debate to explore the issues.


That's great news. Must sign up...

 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 11:43 AM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

I like the actual performances of Conan the Barbarian and Quo Vadis so much, I'd buy both sets a second time if the next batches of pressings were remastered.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 31, 2014 - 2:47 PM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

The Vocalion 2 disc set is the only recording of ‘Quo Vadis’ that I currently have. I listen to it fairly often, and I’ve been debating whether to get the Tadlow release as well. Reading the comments herein regarding the sound issues with that has me dubious now. I have the Rhino release of ‘Ben-Hur’, but I more often find myself listening to the Vocalion release of that one as well. I have several Tadlow releases and enjoy them all, the only one I don’t really like is ‘Conan the Barbarian’ which for whatever reasons doesn’t sound very listenable to me.

It's about the music, isn't it? If you believe that fundamental axiom, you should not be distracted by the interesting but sometimes wayward audio discussion here. The Prometheus QV has more than twice as much music as the Decca/Vocalion, and it's all worth hearing. As for the Rhino B-H vs. the Decca/Vocalion, it's apples and oranges. The former is a 1959 studio track as heard in the film, the latter a 1970s re-imagining of the highlights.

 
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