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 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 9:35 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Ha, a post guaranteed to get a response. I like the music/films/books that I like & don't feel any need to defend them. It's funny, I love a lot of the Max Steiner stuff, but don't like its classical roots. I love baroque (esp. Handel operas) & 20th century music (esp. English & Russian), but the romantic period does nothing for me. I think a persons musical taste is locked in quite early, I found most of the stuff I love by my late twenties (late '70s), of course I've discovered composers & authors since then, but my core loves are all pre that time, & all my favorite films are from before then. A classic case of arrested development! I don't like todays film music, but then I don't like todays pop music, & like very few of todays films, which is a bit of a cliche I know.

So...let's have some more 60's releaes & a Blu-ray of The Great Race, please!


I think you are absolutely right. Personal preferences seem to be forged early on in our development and often stay put. I was raised on jazz, soul, and late Romantic early 20th century classical music-(Liszt's Les Preludes was a childhood fave until we dissected it in first year university History of Western Music frown

Williams' music especially appeals to me because he started in jazz so all those lovely harmonies just tickle my ears.

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 9:47 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)



So, that's the moral of the story - it turns out this was another "have a little more respect for Zimmer, you ignorants" thread but in disguise. Clever...


If that's what you take from it.

It's not about liking his music. You can like whatever you want to. And you don't have to qualify why you do or don't like his music. It's about how it's articulated that causes concern. Some of the posts come off as pronouncements coming from Mt Olympus. It's just a little much don't you think?

Mike West provided a very lengthy and articulate post as to why he was disappointed in Zimmer's score. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But when people come out with one-offs like
"the worst score ever" don't you think that belies a little lack of tact?

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 9:58 AM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

Dear DavidCoscina: Just because Zimmer's contemporaries in the music field admire him does NOT make his music great, good or even worthy of examination. They admire him because he succeeds at selling his brand of sound design to the current flock of moviemakers who do not want music being remembered for thematic melody or for any other reason other than to emphasize the Biff! Bang! Pow! of whatever moment needs some extra goosing.

He is probably the most successful hack Hollywood has ever known. And his admiration by other hacks is to be expected. Bring the level of music quality down to the lowest common denominator and EVERYone wants to be a composer like him...because anyone with an ounce of musicality can do it.

To be a successful hack is admirable. So, there's that!

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 10:24 AM   
 By:   judy the hutt   (Member)

Not just today's music. All of it. It's nothing more than second rate late Romantic and 20 century post romantic rip offs. And all of these hacks do it. Williams and Horner rape Prokofiev's cold dead corpse regularly. Goldsmith screwed Stravinsky's cadaver on several occasions. Korngold with Strauss and Mahler. Herrmann with Bartok and Ives. Don Davis pillaged John Adams' entire 80s catalogue of works for The Matrix. No concert composer was left out. Even the weird ones like Varese, Xenakis (Goldenthal cum Corigliano), Webern, Berg, Debussy, Ravel, and the list goes on.

Honestly guys and gals, its all smoke and mirrors and hack work patchwork. Don't pretend you are on a higher plain of listening taste because you listen to film music. It's the equivalent to pop music in the orchestral world.


Bull. There is some film music that rates up there or even better than those people you have mentioned.

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 11:13 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Not just today's music. All of it. It's nothing more than second rate late Romantic and 20 century post romantic rip offs. And all of these hacks do it. Williams and Horner rape Prokofiev's cold dead corpse regularly. Goldsmith screwed Stravinsky's cadaver on several occasions. Korngold with Strauss and Mahler. Herrmann with Bartok and Ives. Don Davis pillaged John Adams' entire 80s catalogue of works for The Matrix. No concert composer was left out. Even the weird ones like Varese, Xenakis (Goldenthal cum Corigliano), Webern, Berg, Debussy, Ravel, and the list goes on.

Honestly guys and gals, its all smoke and mirrors and hack work patchwork. Don't pretend you are on a higher plain of listening taste because you listen to film music. It's the equivalent to pop music in the orchestral world.


Bull. There is some film music that rates up there or even better than those people you have mentioned.


Please explain "better". I'm going to ask you to qualify that statement seeing that a good portion of what most film score fans deem as "great" film scores are partly derived from the music language forged by the aforementioned composers.


 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 11:22 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Dear JohnnyG: Just because Zimmer's contemporaries in the music field admire him does NOT make his music great, good or even worthy of examination. They admire him because he succeeds at selling his brand of sound design to the current flock of moviemakers who do not want music being remembered for thematic melody or for any other reason other than to emphasize the Biff! Bang! Pow! of whatever moment needs some extra goosing.

He is probably the most successful hack Hollywood has ever known. And his admiration by other hacks is to be expected. Bring the level of music quality down to the lowest common denominator and EVERYone wants to be a composer like him...because anyone with an ounce of musicality can do it.

To be a successful hack is admirable. So, there's that!


Actually JohnnyG is on your side. He highlighted parts of my post. So you are laying into the wrong guy! smile

Look, I do see your point. And is it also possible that there's a certain decorum in Hollywood amoungst composers? Probably and it might also extend to some of those music forums I described. Every professional musician has to be mindful of his/her conduct when they are marketing themselves and I understand why. Whereas those on this forum (me included to be clear) don't have anything to gain nor lose by offering our unrestricted observations. You aren't trying to curry favor with Zimmer.

If it counts for anything, because of my past spicey comments about RC and Hans Zimmer, I'm on his "ignore" list. No matter how much I try to make amends for those comments, t'would seem that I am not allowed to have a change of perspective. It was also nice of some asshole who frequents this forum under another chickshit pseudonym to manipulate my posts here about MOS and post them on that music forum to demonstrate to Zimmer how I play both sides. Yeah, very honorable. That kind of crap makes my blood boil.

Anyhow, I only mentioned this to show that I am not an ardent Zimmer follower or have any ulterior motive. The guy hates my guts and that's that. Oh well. I still like his some of his music quite a lot (some it very elicits some very great emotional reactions) and respect him for helping out other musicians on that forum. He also knows a lot more about music than perhaps comes across in interviews. I'm not going to compare him to Williams just like I wouldn't compare Williams to Stravinsky or Prokofiev or Mahler. Not fair.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 11:23 AM   
 By:   KonstantinosZ   (Member)

David i should mention though also that all this "problem" that you have brought about, is not something that is evident here exclusively!
It is done always and everywhere in all the fields.
And even in classical music, among musically literate people, how many times haven't you seen someone saying negative things about Tchaikovsky or look down upon people who like his music more than say, the atonal compositions of Schoenberg, Berg etc.?

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 11:24 AM   
 By:   betenoir   (Member)

Fortunately for me I quite enjoy things that suck. wink

Now, that is a statement with a lot of delightful ambiguity!

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 11:31 AM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

Some of the posts come off as pronouncements coming from Mt Olympus. It's just a little much don't you think?

Words are just words. Here, they are just personal opinions, not edicts from on high.

What makes them seem that way to you?

We all get a bit preachy from time to time. Is it that mode of writing that make these things seem like pronouncements?

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 11:40 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Some of the posts come off as pronouncements coming from Mt Olympus. It's just a little much don't you think?

Words are just words. Here, they are just personal opinions, not edicts from on high.

What makes them seem that way to you?

We all get a bit preachy from time to time. Is it that mode of writing that make these things seem like pronouncements?


I know. Guilty as charged. I think I'm always about the articulation if at all possible.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 5:40 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

It strikes me that we're not defining our terms very well in this thread. "Classical music" can encompass some very ordinary music; the term doesn't of itself denote excellence. "Film music" can be anything from a Roy Webb western to Rozsa's Ben-Hur. It's ridiculous to say that one form of music is inherently superior to the other, especially when it's because one form uses a musical language established by the other, which, last time I looked, was not a musical crime.

It is fair to say that classical music starts with the obvious advantage that it's not restricted by being linked to another art form--that is, it's free flowing. That's a considerable advantage, especially from the composer's point of view. For myself, and being a musically illiterate peasant, I don't always find it an advantage from the listener's point of view. Film music must be very concise most of the time (here I'm talking "classic", Golden and Silver Age stuff). The composer has limited time to make his melodic points and pluck our heart strings before he's dialled out again. Classical music has the freedom to ramble, and I confess that for me it often does just that. Maybe it's because I have a short attention span (see note on "ignorant peasant" above), or maybe it's just because I started in film music and so have different expectations. Often I've been referred back to the supposed source of a film piece only to find that, yes, there may be some melodic reference, but the source has none of the emotional wallop or sheer excitement of the "copy". I just like the way film music gets on with it and punches home its points. I'm a cretin, I know, but there it is. There are some classical composers--notably Vaughan-Williams--whose symphonies I can digest wholesale, so perhaps my attention span isn't so limited after all, but a composer really has to hit the spot to draw that degree of concentration from me.

There's another thing. Film music in the last century has been for many people the only form of orchestral "art" music (I use that term of course in its loosest form) they will ever encounter. Other than Rozsa's or Herrmann's or Newman's scores, most people would never have had contact with the "classical" form at all. Remember in the late 70s when the strains of Star Wars emanated from the window of every second house. Suddenly teenagers whose whole musical education had been Elvis, The Beatles or Status Quo had discovered the symphony orchestra and the symphonic form. That's the value and power of good film music (which of course has evaporated over the past 20 years or so, but that's another story). Rather than deriding film music for being derivative or a pastiche or whatever, we should be lauding it as a filter through which the art music of previous centuries has trickled down to the Great Unwashed.

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 6:59 PM   
 By:   gone   (Member)


Film music spans such a wide range of sound that I avoid pretentious generalizations at all costs... or at least try to. The bashing and stating of opinion as if fact gets old no doubt.

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 8:41 PM   
 By:   edwzoomom   (Member)

This is an odd site for you to be on then!

Really? I thought I was in good company since most posts lately are bitching about this score and that score. Even classic Goldsmith scores aren't safe.


Ah, okay, not me, - i dish out a few hits here and there, not on the masters though. Perhaps you should pop in a good happy film score, like Hook or ET, and we can send you a group hug.


Thanks! Obviously my posts were sarcastic (well mostly). I just find it odd how the tenor of this forum has changed to that of a whiny tone. And to be perfectly honest, a good deal of these "assertions" are authored by people who don't know much about film scoring or music at all, yet they purport what composer A shou,d have done or what director B didn't do right. It's rather silly don't you think?


I rarely if ever join a site like FSM. When I joined this board, I was upfront about the fact that I have no connection to the music industry or to anything relative to it. My only reason for coming here was my love of the scores, the movies and the composers who bring them to us. I have often spoken of my admiration and respect for those here who have the professional and artistic connections to the creation and marketing of this music. On the other side of this, I have never found the input and commentary from the non-connected members to be "whiny or silly". Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that individuals who join this site need not have any required expertise or connections in order to join or post. Further, I was under the impression that all opinions are welcomed as long as the member follows the rules of good conduct. Assertions are nothing more than opinions with a bit of fervor behind them. Looking down your nose at people who share an interest in something so unique and wonderful is rather "silly" in my opinion - or would snooty be a better term - I think!

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 8:52 PM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)



I rarely if ever join a site like FSM. When I joined this board, I was upfront about the fact that I have no connection to the music industry or to anything relative to it. My only reason for coming here was my love of the scores, the movies and the composers who bring them to us. I have often spoken of my admiration and respect for those here who have the professional and artistic connections to the creation and marketing of this music. On the other side of this, I have never found the input and commentary from the non-connected members to be "whiny or silly". Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that individuals who join this site need not have any required expertise or connections in order to join or post. Further, I was under the impression that all opinions are welcomed as long as the member follows the rules of good conduct. Assertions are nothing more than opinions with a bit of fervor behind them. Looking down your nose at people who share an interest in something so unique and wonderful is rather "silly" in my opinion - or would snooty be a better term - I think!


Please read my later posts. I said that one not need a phd in music to provide or share opinions. Just well thought out and articulated perspectives would be appreciated.

 
 Posted:   Jun 26, 2013 - 10:26 PM   
 By:   yonythemoony   (Member)

I think that film music has evolved a lot since the very beggining of it. From a piano solo, to the use of a classic orchestra, and now the blends almost every kind of musical genre and styles being out there.

It's true that film music always had a big influence from classic music, but I think it has managed to have new generations to be interested in orchestral music.

 
 Posted:   Jun 27, 2013 - 4:46 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

I think that film music has evolved a lot since the very beggining of it. From a piano solo, to the use of a classic orchestra, and now the blends almost every kind of musical genre and styles being out there.

It's true that film music always had a big influence from classic music, but I think it has managed to have new generations to be interested in orchestral music.


I totally agree. And while I don't think I'd have the gumption to claim Williams is better than Stravinsky, I will say Williams' Superman is on equal footing to some of the greatest 20th century works for sure. Same can be said for the work of Herrmann, North, Goldsmith, Barry, Korngold, Tiomkin, Raksin, and whole lot of other guys.

 
 Posted:   Jun 27, 2013 - 5:23 PM   
 By:   Loren   (Member)

Don Davis pillaged John Adams' entire 80s catalogue of works for The Matrix.

Really? I think their styles are striking different.
Please provide examples.

 
 Posted:   Jun 27, 2013 - 8:35 PM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Don Davis pillaged John Adams' entire 80s catalogue of works for The Matrix.

Really? I think their styles are striking different.
Please provide examples.



To start with, that Eminor to C major brass signature which is a fundamental part of what distinguishes this franchise is taken from Adams' closing moments from his massive Harmonielehre. Even those fervent 16 note repeating figures are from the same piece and when Neo allows Smith t invade him in the climatic battle from Revolutions, the throbbing choral utterances are from Adams' Harmonium.

Buy you know what? I still think Davis was brilliant for applying these devices into a sci fi action blockbuster. No one had ever done that before or really since (probably because its too damned complex to try!).

Remember I was saying these initial things in jest.

 
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