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The Star Wars films have had problems since ROTJ.
The prequels were poorly written and (mostly*) ploddingly directed.
Force Awakens was typical of today's franchise/blockbuster mentality.
Re-hashed material, delivered in quick-hit, slickly shot and edited fashion.
It was enjoyable to me, for what it was (repackaged Nu-Star Wars, Disney style), just like the Marvel Superhero films are well packaged and delivered.
I plan on seeing TLJ again in a week or two, for a more considered view and opinion.
I remember lots of bits I liked and lots of bits I REALLY didn't like, so I'm interested to see what my calmer, more thoughtful viewing of it will produce.
The fact I can envisage sitting through it again already places it above the prequels and Rogue One.
The score has enjoyable moments, but is a bit too derivative of previous SW scores for me and has the worst End Title suite of ALL the SW films so far.
*The Darth Maul Duel is anything BUT plodding. It's a beautiful ballet of Jedi fighting skills.
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I dunno, this one just seems more clunky and thrown together.
The earlier ones had much better bridges between the themes, to me at least.
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I dunno, this one just seems more clunky and thrown together.
The earlier ones had much better bridges between the themes, to me at least.
Agreed. The film version of the end title is even worse. A lot of the score seems cut and paste or thrown together haphazardly, actually. The opening cue - WOOF! Even the concert suite is like an ADD nightmare.
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*The Darth Maul Duel is anything BUT plodding. It's a beautiful ballet of Jedi fighting skills.
Yeah, that was pretty cool. :-)
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Posted: |
Jan 3, 2018 - 8:42 AM
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By: |
CK
(Member)
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I dunno, this one just seems more clunky and thrown together.
The earlier ones had much better bridges between the themes, to me at least.
Is there a musical reason why the bridges never quite seem to work? Is it the key change? The cut from whatever style of music coming before to always the same fanfare (is that always in the same key, by the way)?
In A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back it works. In Return of the Jedi (Special Edition), there's a brief break between the finale music and the opening of the credits, which works or does not for me, depending on the day of the week. Attack of the Clones works very nicely, too...
One thing I would kill for to hear in Ep. IX, even though it would be against precedent and quite unlikely to happen...have a choir in either the main titles or the end credits. Wrap up the ennealogy in the grandest of styles with - hopefully* - Williams' final say on the saga.
* 'Hopefully' in the way of "Please God, let him be around to do it!"
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"In A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back it works. In Return of the Jedi (Special Edition), there's a brief break between the finale music and the opening of the credits, which works or does not for me, depending on the day of the week"
------------------------
Yeah, the first two are the best. The original Jedi ending (with the Ewok song) worked fine also, but the cheesy, spiritual hymn of the Special Edition, not so much.
I'll have to revisit the prequel End Titles to remind myself how they sound, but I remember thinking the Augie's Band cue from Phantom Menace was okay too.
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Posted: |
Jan 3, 2018 - 6:17 PM
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By: |
TM
(Member)
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Williams started doing funky transitions between the Finale and End Credits in Revenge of the Sith, which yeah, sound clunky or utterly brilliant depending on how closely I pay attention to it. Jedi was originally fine but the new song in the special edition necessitated the break that was there--the choir originally carried over. The prequels had fairly brief utilitarian transitions, Attack of the Clones was really only Across the Stars with a brief montage after showing the progression between Anakin's theme, to the love theme, to Vader's theme. Sith was Concert Leia Theme, Battle of the Heroes, then Concert Throne Room, which I thought was WAY out of place, but whatever, cool, it was a triumphant end to that trilogy, then interesting Force theme variations and hints at one of the Rebel themes in Star Wars before back to the Throne Room then another awkward/brilliant transition into the finale of the Main Title Concert version. Force Awakens was great, but according to the players it was utterly grueling to play the 10 minute piece over and over again until Williams was satisfied (especially the for the brass). And it was essentially just all the concert suites strung together, although you can tell they aren't the same performances. The real question is: does anybody know if Last Jedi really was a cut and paste job or actually one performance? I think it could be either because the transitions fit with the evolution of Williams style to less and less "classical" sounding transitions, probably because they no longer interest him. Jagged, edgy transitions are a lot of fun, as long as you're paying attention.
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Posted: |
Jan 5, 2018 - 6:54 AM
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By: |
Expat@22
(Member)
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Having read so much of the guff on this thread and the countless others makes me think that I'm done with Star Wars.
I'm close on 50 and have had it in my life since a kid and have loved all the iterations, but the fans-not so much.
It seems to me that Star Wars fans have become the biggest bunch of whiney man-babies that scream self-entitlement when they don't get their every wish fulfilled and proclaim loud and long that George Lucas/Kathleen Kennedy/JJ Abrams/Rian Jonston/Gareth Edwards has raped their collective childhood.
Only 6 months to go and they can add Ron Howard to the list.
There is another thread on the non-film discussion board that might be ok for non-score comments?
Having said that, I don't know whether to take your disparaging views of 'SW fans" as click bait or not. 
For example, I saw the original films when they came out and all the others so far as well. I would consider myself a SW fan - of the films and their story arc. I certainly don't consider my comments as 'whiney' etc etc,. Far from it. So I didn't know whether to consider your remarks as directed at me as a member of the group you are taking aim at.
I think a lot of pretty well argued fan comments that I have read go into great detail concerning their negative impressions of the film TLJ and for the most part their comments come off as honest and heartfelt (there are a few positive comments along similar lines but mostly they are just short statements it seems to me). Admittedly there is a sub set of fans who comment for and against the film and/or about others using extreme potty mouth vernacular or just abusive language or hyperbole. The best course of action IMO is to just ignore them.
So, unless you saw at least one of the original trilogy in the cinema on original release, you are considered a "newbie" and your opinion no longer counts. It's like 'Nam-"You weren't there man-you don't know what it was like".
In my view, the best defence against prejudice of that sort is to mount a strong argument for your views. The only line of criticism of your views would then have to be to discuss your reasons or lack thereof and your assumptions.
Also, if you just post a comment for or against then that should be that. You aren't required to back up your opinion if you don't want to.
[snip]
For the record-I loved this score much more than the relatively lifeless Force Awakens and the film itself a damn sight more.
I have gone back to listen to the prequel scores. I certainly appreciate them, particularly the Phantom Menace.
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I think a lot of pretty well argued fan comments that I have read go into great detail concerning their negative impressions of the film TLJ and for the most part their comments come off as honest and heartfelt (there are a few positive comments along similar lines but mostly they are just short statements it seems to me). Admittedly there is a sub set of fans who comment for and against the film and/or about others using extreme potty mouth vernacular or just abusive language or hyperbole. The best course of action IMO is to just ignore them.
I've scoured the net for reviews after seeing this film, and most of the audience critics tend to sum up their views with Jeopardizing (answering with the form of questions): "Why did Kylo do this? Why did Luke not do that? Why did Poe do the other?", most of which have been answered in detail. It all comes across as so much passive-aggressiveness that I can only surmise they've made up their minds about Last with no regard to others' views to such non-questions. It's just another facet in this "Age of the Double-Down".
I personally cannot fathom how one considers oneself a "fan" (which is abbreviated for "fanatic", let's not get that twisted), when such fandom is expressed in hatred as a mistaken virtue, confused for passion, and then using this label, and a form of groupthink, to justify their hatred (and in turn vicarious ownership, without lifting a finger to produce anything). Frankly, any critic who thinks oneself as a "fan" is merely a snob.
For example, I love everything Metallica has done, albeit to various degrees, with the exception of "Ronnie". I therefore don't consider myself a fan (though, specifically, I'm definitely a "Master of Puppets" fan), and the universe spins evermore. Go figure.
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Posted: |
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:43 AM
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By: |
LeHah
(Member)
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For example, I love everything Metallica has done, albeit to various degrees, with the exception of "Ronnie". I therefore don't consider myself a fan (though, specifically, I'm definitely a "Master of Puppets" fan), and the universe spins evermore. Go figure.
You're also imposing your personal internalized form of justification (which we all do) and trying to apply it to the whole - which is just a very bad idea. The concept of "this is how I feel, why don't others" is a road paved with good intentions, leading to the eventual glue factory of reason.
As to fandoms, they are all inherently toxic. I mean - are any of you reading this board? We all bitch and gripe about things. Sometimes its for good reason, sometimes its not and other times you're outright wrong. The idea that Star Wars fans are somehow more toxic than < insert other fandom here > is wildly bad logic. Or as George Carlin once put it "I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loathe and despise the groups they identify or belong to." - and that goes from here as well as Star Wars and pretty much anything else.
As to the topic, The Last Jedi is fucking smart-for-stupids illiterate garbage written to be entirely nihilistic for no justifiable reason. If you like it, well, I envy you because I prefer to enjoy things but in some cases I cannot. I think everyone can say they have that experience with other things too. Star Wars ain't what it use to be, so its not getting my money anymore. Thats all the control I have over it at this point until Kathleen Kennedy calls me up and asks me to put pen to paper.
As it stands, JJ Abrams will sleep so much better than the rest of us with the knowledge that he no longer made the single most (at best) divisive and (at worst) outright terrible Star Wars film so far. He's really the only one who made out, in the end. The rest of us, like Atlas, must carry the psychological burden of childhood dreams burned down for the rest of our days. (Maybe its time we all grew up.)
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For example, I love everything Metallica has done, albeit to various degrees, with the exception of "Ronnie". I therefore don't consider myself a fan (though, specifically, I'm definitely a "Master of Puppets" fan), and the universe spins evermore. Go figure.
You're also imposing your personal internalized form of justification (which we all do) and trying to apply it to the whole - which is just a very bad idea. The concept of "this is how I feel, why don't others" is a road paved with good intentions, leading to the eventual glue factory of reason.
It's more about my own perceptions of what has been, for me, a strewn-about label that has lost all meaning... but then again, what hasn't? It's just hard to relate in this particular instance...
ME: I'm a Star Wars fan.
FAN: Me too... but HAN SHOT FIRST AND **** ROGUE ONE AND THE FARCE TAKES A NAP AND...!
ME: ... okay... lemme check if Farscape has any fan openings...
As to fandoms, they are all inherently toxic. I mean - are any of you reading this board? We all bitch and gripe about things. Sometimes its for good reason, sometimes its not and other times you're outright wrong. The idea that Star Wars fans are somehow more toxic than < insert other fandom here > is wildly bad logic. Or as George Carlin once put it "I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loathe and despise the groups they identify or belong to." - and that goes from here as well as Star Wars and pretty much anything else.
As to the topic, The Last Jedi is fucking smart-for-stupids illiterate garbage written to be entirely nihilistic for no justifiable reason. If you like it, well, I envy you because I prefer to enjoy things but in some cases I cannot. I think everyone can say they have that experience with other things too. Star Wars ain't what it use to be, so its not getting my money anymore. Thats all the control I have over it at this point until Kathleen Kennedy calls me up and asks me to put pen to paper.
As it stands, JJ Abrams will sleep so much better than the rest of us with the knowledge that he no longer made the single most (at best) divisive and (at worst) outright terrible Star Wars film so far. He's really the only one who made out, in the end. The rest of us, like Atlas, must carry the psychological burden of childhood dreams burned down for the rest of our days. (Maybe its time we all grew up.)
I've made my peace with Disney when they cast aside "Legends". These new movies don't have to be TEH BEHST EVAH because I've already had those. Fans in general just... well, it's like they never saw the movies, let alone learned from them, and I ain't here to teach them. Still, they do want to own what they "profess" to love, shelling out no more than the price of a ticket, like a bunch of armchair stockholders. And yes, that does apply to a few in this board (though, c'mon, it's always the same few!).
PS: If David Fincher and Steven Spielberg didn't want to touch this new venture, and with the hired/fired director ratio now standing at 1:1, you know the field was already loaded with fantraps! Poor Opie....
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The "Rose" motif, "Battle of Crait" danger motif, and "Canto Bight" cue caught me right away, and the variations of themes keep me going throughout. I suspect I'll have this all memorized in no time.
TLJ was yet another pediestian score phoned in by Williams. Literally the only stuff I liked from the entire score was the music he rehashed from previous Star Wars movies.
Williams’ score for TESB remains the benchmark for these sort of films. Everything he has done subsequently has been deminishing (with the possible exception of Phantom Menace). Time to hand over the Star Wars reigns to someone else, ideally John Powell (who is totally capable of doing the Solo score without the needless input of Williams).
... cough um, LeHah cough Exhibit A COUGH...
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Question for those familiar with the film:
I’ve seen it twice now and both times I zoned out and missed some of Yoda’s dialogue. What does he say right at the end of the scene as they sit and watch the flames? Something about what it means to be a master?
Anyone remember that bit?
“We are what they grow beyond - that is the curse of all masters” or something to that effect. He probably switched around the fronts and ends of some of those phrases.
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