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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 8:28 AM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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The one time I interviewed Goldsmith I asked him about how his style changed over the years and he said, "The MOVIES changed." And he specifically said that he didn't think he could go back and use the style of something like Freud or Alien in a movie he was doing now
He was right, without question. Inevitably, threads like this conflate respect (or lack) for the work with respect (or lack) for the composer, which is unfortunate. Perhaps we want our composers to be superheroes, who can defy directors and studios and even the films themselves to create a brilliant score despite them.
My love and admiration for Goldsmith can withstand a couple dozen scores that do nothing for me. But I like what I like, and the reason a score sounds like it does is irrelevant when I'm listening. So sure, a Goldsmith score I dislike (I won't be foolish enough to name one here, because all the responses would be "How can you not like _________?!") might very well have been the doing of a hundred factors out of Goldsmith's control. But I'm not writing a thesis, I'm listening to music. So why would I choose to listen?
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The action music in Total Recall is pretty much an expansion of what he did for the action in Innerspace, a film and score I enjoy much more (the score as an experience having much more variety to it).
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I'm with you on Bad Girls, Joan. Love it to this day.
And I'm glad you posted about TR, Schiffy, and am always interested in why you don't like a score. I completely appreciate why some folks don't care for Total Recall. I find I love or don't a Goldsmith score based very much on its theme. so for example Insurrection I don't care much for and Nemesis I do, just based on that. And If I'm remembering right, I think you're just the opposite, and again, completely understand why.
And calling up to the creepy mask avatar, um, Bartok would not have considered his Concerto for Orchestra a bland or innocuous work, even though late, nor would Penderecki think that of his works. And neither do I.
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 11:28 AM
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By: |
John Mullin
(Member)
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The one time I interviewed Goldsmith I asked him about how his style changed over the years and he said, "The MOVIES changed." And he specifically said that he didn't think he could go back and use the style of something like Freud or Alien in a movie he was doing now.
I've thought about this concept a lot, actually, and it's interesting that he articulated it like that when you spoke with him.
In 2001, before Tim Burton's (horrible) PLANET OF THE APES attempt came out, I remember that there were people on the film music sites clamoring for Goldsmith to get the job instead of Elfman, presumably so he could reprise some of his material from the original film and from ESCAPE (or whatever).
At the time, I remember thinking that if Goldsmith _had_ gotten the job, it's not like he would have written that original score again, you know? It's a totally different movie, made in a completely different time, with absolutely different needs. He would have scored it as if it were an action/fantasy movie made in 2001… much like he scored all of his STAR TREK sequels. I'm sure the score would have been good, but I think people were really unrealistic about what Goldsmith might _want_ to do with a movie like that and with what a company like 20th Century Fox would let him do. At the time, Elfman himself even commented that Goldsmith's music for the 1968 original was a lot more progressive than anything he'd have the guts to try to put into a massively expensive would-be blockbuster in 2001.
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I am with Spymaster, Bad Girls is a really excellent score.
ME TOO !!
Bad Girls is awesome, Kev. Works like gangbusters in the film! The Main Title is purposefully bland. It's "bored hookers going about their business" music. It serves to make The Hanging even more exciting!
EXACTLY !!
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 1:45 PM
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By: |
Francis
(Member)
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At the time, I remember thinking that if Goldsmith _had_ gotten the job, it's not like he would have written that original score again, you know? It's a totally different movie, made in a completely different time, with absolutely different needs. He would have scored it as if it were an action/fantasy movie made in 2001… much like he scored all of his STAR TREK sequels. I'm sure the score would have been good, but I think people were really unrealistic about what Goldsmith might _want_ to do with a movie like that and with what a company like 20th Century Fox would let him do. At the time, Elfman himself even commented that Goldsmith's music for the 1968 original was a lot more progressive than anything he'd have the guts to try to put into a massively expensive would-be blockbuster in 2001.
This is a good example, and it was also the case every time Goldsmith did a TNG movie; people on the boards kept comparing it to Goldsmith's The Motion Picture score as if any of those movies asked for such a score. For certain fans, it was never good enough and I wonder if they gave up on film music altogether in the decades that followed LOL.
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I came of age and started buying Goldsmith records in the magical year of 1978, when we got Coma, The Swarm, Capricorn One, Damien Omen II and Magic all in one go (although we had to wait a long time for Magic to come out). The next decade or so was such a thrill ride, one masterpiece after the next. When the 90's rolled around Jerry's style had changed, and yeah anything would seem like a come down after so many works of genius. If the ponytail era was all we ever got, Jerry would have a proud place in history. But for some of us who caught the bug early (and I'm often jealous of those who were on board even earlier in the 60's), those years just naturally felt more exciting and groundbreaking than Jerry's later career.
Well, expressed, and I could not agree more! Wasn't THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL also from 1978?
SCOTT
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TOTAL RECALL was not a favorite but then again I'm much more into the ISLANDS IN THE STREAM, PAPILLON and PATTON kind of Goldsmith than the RAMBO, MUMMY and TOTAL RECALL kind of Goldsmith.
Basically the drama scores over the muscular fantasy action scores. (MFAS from now on.)
All that said, my friend Paul Place urged me to re-think my opinion after years of abstaining and I did. Well, it didn't become a favorite and I still prefer the drama scores over the MFAS, but when I'm in a mood for a MFAS, which occasionally happens, I now go straight to TOTAL RECALL.
I agree TOTAL RECALL is best of breed in MFAS. It's just not a preferred genre of mine.
Cheers
I agree with you on preferring drama scores, but I also prefer the more musically complex "brawn" scores of the 60's and 70's, and early 80's (THE BLUE MAX, THE WIND AND THE LION, CAPRICORN ONE, CABOBLANCO, STAR TREK- TMP, OUTLAND, MASADA, THE FINAL CONFLICT). And all these scores have musically distinctive action cues differing in composition and style for each film.
I think, as many have mentioned already, that after this time his style simplified and brawn became more monotonous and predictable. Difficult to distinguish action cues from TOTAL RECALL, FIRST KNIGHT, THE EDGE, THE RIVER WILD or even BASIC INSTICT, etc. in style.
SCOTT
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 2:27 PM
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By: |
Rnelson
(Member)
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I think, as many have mentioned already, that after this time his style simplified and brawn became more predictable. Difficult to distinguish action cues from TOTAL RECALL from FIRST KNIGHT, THE EDGE, THE RIVER WILD or even BASIC INSTICT, etc. in style.
SCOTT
Hmm. I think, texturally, all of those scores (action cues included) are easily distinguishable from one another. Goldsmith's style is his style and that's always been the case.
I think that he simplified his melodic ideas during the 90's (one of the reason's I'm not a big fan of ST: Nemesis is that the thematic material is rather lacking in personality). Total Recall seems to be a focus in this discussion and I think that score is complex not just structurally but also thematically. If you listen to the complete score it's pretty breathtaking how Goldsmith builds such a gargantuan soundscape from just a few simple themes and motivic ideas. There's a sort of fractal nature to that score which is endlessly fascinating for me.
First Knight is rather a broader, more melody-driven score and this comes through in the action material as well. Then compare that to the Ghost and The Darkness which is more basic and primal in approach. I think Goldsmith's 90's output, while not as structurally ornate and detailed as his earlier work, is just as ambitious conceptually and thematically as it ever was (given the types of films and attitude toward music that existed at the time).
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Nailed it, Jeff. It is often true that the baldest statement of a Goldsmith theme may not be nearly the most interesting use of the idea (I think very true for Total Recall and Bad Girls, though I bet Jerry loved the main title version of Bad Girls - I think he loved writing pretty music). And this is often more true for Goldsmith than many other composers. So many of his themes are like what he said about Papillon's theme being too on-the-nose.
But if a theme doesn't do it for me, then I'm less interested in what he does with it. I used Insurrection because I'm personally not looking for the garsh-it's-the-Waltons-in-space approach he took quite rightly for that Star Trek movie. I much prefer his noble/nasty theme for the Romulans in Nemesis - so I find I prefer the later to the earlier score, though I can see why others might see it just the opposite way.
Same problem for me with The Edge and First Knight - those themes set my teeth on edge for some reason explained in an old thread, so I don't enjoy them as much as, for example, Bad Girls or River Wild, or The Shadow.
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All the talk about how movies changed and how producer's requirements changed, made me think of how Goldsmith's personal life and attitudes shifted over the years. My personal preference regarding his stylistic period would be late 60's to mid 70's, a period where allegedly Goldsmith's personal life was unsteady. He got divorced, became an alcoholic, got into womanizing (again, allegedly, I didn't know the guy), and was one presumes unhappy and angry. And musically, he was on fire creatively. The old "angry artist" stereotype. By the late 80's his life was much more stable, a good second marriage, successful grown children, his vices in check. And his work started to streamline. The early 90's were supposed to be a little discouraging to him, as he had several scores get rejected in succession, which may have led to a less intense attitude.
I've joked to a friend of mine that I wish I could go back to him in the late 90's every morning before he started work, and kick him in the shins. Just to get him nice and cross. Then let him work it out with his music. He just got a little too happy, and the music got more peaceful.
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