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For some reason I'm only able to pull up part of your long post on the re-section - no matter.
LOGIC
I'll grant you that that the Burton Batman films have the same wanton disregard for logic and physics that the Nolan film has, but Burton's films were never going for realism. He makes it clear from the comic-book art direction and the exaggerated villain performances that these films are essentially live-action cartoons - the world they inhabit is not our own. Batman Begins, by contrasts sets itself up in its first act as being the realist's interpretation of Batman, going through great measures to explain every technical detail behind the Batman physics, tethering him to the real world. As a result, when he finally unleashes the comic book implausibilities, they clash against the realism the film was formerly so obsessed with. This goes doubly for the chase scenes. Maybe the Batmobile in the first two films is clearly fake, but at least it was elegant. When it sped down Anton Furst's and Bo Welch's gorgeous sets while Elfman's triumphant fanfares blasted, I was willing to overlook the fakery of the scenes because they were so aesthetically pleasing and clearly weren't supposed to exist in the real world. By contrast when that monstrosity of a tank lumbered down rooftops against the backdrop of a real city, all I could think of was the sheer ludicrousness of an enormous tank not falling through the roof it was driving over. Whatever pains Nolan may have taken to make the Batmobile seem plausible, it's still a BATMOBILE. Once you bring it into the real world, you sacrifice any plausibility - why sacrifice aesthetic pleasure as well?
As for the mayor and the D.A. in the first Batman, I think it's pretty clear that their presence serves to establish that the higher ranking government officials are either unable or more likely unwilling to do anything about Grisam's crime empire. Batman Begins has the same dynamic - the difference, once again, is that characters in Batman Begins actually state this dynamic, while the original Batman only expects us to pick up on it for ourselves.
As for the lines of dialogue you pulled - half of them seem like non-sequiturs (what does "I believe the word you're looking for is ARRRGH" prove?), but I'll grant you a few of them. In particular, I can see how "You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak" would seem like an outright statement of Batman's relationship with the Penguin - but that's only if you assume that the statement is accurate, and I don't think the film assumes this at all. The Penguin may assume that Batman's merely jealous, but Batman's rage comes more from the fact that he's forced to witness a groteque parody of himself win over the public that Batman's spent so much time quietly protecting. And the "I am not a man, I am an animal" line is a direct negation of a line he speaks earlier in the film - we aren't expected to take him for his word now any more than we were expected to take him for his word when he claimed he was a man.
I'm sure there are more points you made that I haven't touched on, but that's all I can handle for the moment. I'm sure I'll be doing this all over again after your next response ;-)
Pedestrian Wolf
Pedestrian Wolf
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The really odd thing that has always surprised me about the many interpretations of THE BATMAN (correct full title), is that every take on him misses what he originally was all about, and that's, first and foremost, a detective (with a slight psychological disorder that makes him dress up as a bat and fight crime, or course.) The music doesn't even play to this side of him. It's all super hero glitz and full tilt action. At least Elfman's music marinaded the character and film with a sense of gloomy darkness that matched the appropriate gothic tones that stayed true to the characters origins. But there has yet to been a film that's explored the true analytical prowess of the Dark Knight's character, that is supposedly only second to Sherlock Holmes (coming in a strong 3rd would be Benji or Lassie). As far as other Comic Book adaptations, only a handful have been faithful to have gotten it right (and, most likely, were successful because of it). Some of these would be: SUPERMAN, THE ROCKETEER, THE CROW, and perhaps THE ROAD TO PARDITION.
- Oz
And Ghost World.
I am so completely with you on The Dark Detective. The way he's treated now isn't for his savvy or intellect, but for how many James Bond toys he has. Nowadays, we get Kung Fu Grip Batman, his origin and modus operandi rendered effette by expository, postmodern pop psych without any hint of growth, change, or even consequence. His villains (live action wise*) are caricatures with the flimsiest grounding as to why they would choose and act out their shticks. This treatment all leads to a tone which has become inevitable in the films - a circus carnival (of which I thought Goldenthal captured perfectly, considering he was given little else to interpret). Begins didn't deconstruct Bats so much as answer the Joker's "toys" question from Burton's first film.
Could someone tell me why Batman has to be a high tech ninja with HAL 9000 in a private cave that's been invaded more times than Earth by Martians? Also, could it be possible that the weirdest, most mysterious element in a Batman film would be.... oh I dunno.... how 'bout... BATMAN??
Seeing these "leaked" plcs from The Dark Knight, of his Robosuit and Tankcycle, has me even less enthused to the point where I'll just wait for these films to hit DVD.
We'll just have to keep waiting and see what comes next. I'd sure like to see a faithful take on Frank Miller's Dark Knight.
Bruce Timm did it! One of the last episodes of the Batman Animated Series featured an anthology of stories ranging from a hilarious 70s Filmation take to a beautifully executed sequence of Bats and a female Robin facing off against those mutant crooks from Miller's Dark Knight beginning.
* can you tell I'm a Batman Animated lover? 
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Interesting perspective on the Prince score from an actual Prince expert. I'm curious now to compare his "Batman" stuff with those other tracks you mentioned, ahem.
It also must have taken me some extra effort to forget "Flash Gordon," which IS a comic book movie with a one-pop-group-song score. Now I'm interested what Queen fans thought of that one, although strictly speaking this may be the wrong thread . . .
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The worst part is that you AREN'T being sarcastic [about the action].
I'm also NOT being sarcastic about the clear and distinct fighting choreography in Batman Begins, which is extremely easy to register and comprehend and DOESN'T display incredibly choppy editing that is not at all crude or unsophisticated or squeeze all possible enjoyment out of the action. 
For all of Nolan's flaws (David Goyer being one)...
I thought Nolan got everything perfect?
At any event, if I could get back to an older topic:
I'm sorry, but I just don't feel like I'm being lectured during that scene -- at all.
Well naturally- you are the defence!
I think the only obvious subtext in the "Hell Here" scene is that Selina's apartment was her own personal Hell, nothing else.
Nor, do I feel, would any other reasonable viewer.
Make that "Tim Burton fan".
You're the one who knows every last bit of trivia and history behind the filmmaking.
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Posted: |
Jul 14, 2007 - 1:20 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Oh, and how convenient that Selina Kyle happens to be linked to Batman out of costume in less than two links, just like every other principal in the movie. Burton/Waters sure made Gotham city feel as tight as the smallest of soundstage sets (and not just in the lazy writing, of course).
In fairness, that's more an attribute of social networking in superhero comic books and comics-inspired movies, TV, etc. in general, and not so much specific to this movie. It's the sort of thing where if you don't like it, perhaps you ought to stick with other genres, since you're going to get lots of it in this one.
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No, Batman *Returns* was the first film to have a wide Dolby Digital release (Star Trek VI had three Dolby Digital prints a year earlier as a test).
You are correct, of course.
My mind blots out the memory of the terrible RETURNS.
mY doctor said i suffer from astmls: awful sequel traumatic memory loss syndrome.LOL!
bruce
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I can't believe no one's mentioned Prince's contribution yet.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but somehow I admire the idea of having one pop musician engaged to do the ENTIRE pop-song score of a movie so much more than cramming the soundtrack with whatever individual songs the music supervisor (and/or his/her staff) believe will help sell the CDs to this summer's crop of teens-with-cash.
Whatever one may think of Prince as a musician, permitting his pop-musical voice to be the ONLY one in the film's underscore (and source music) helped in a small way to create the "world" in which that story took place. (--Though not as much as Elfman's orchestral score, obviously.)
How likely are we to see a one-pop-star-movie-song-score again? It seems so much less likely in the modern commercialized comic book movie business model.
What are some other examples in movie history, by the way? I can't think of other comic book movie examples, but there's "The Graduate," "Jonathan Livingston Seagull," "Harold and Maude," and "Jungle Fever."
Any others?
Prince made a major contribution to the film.
I have always said that the "expanded" cd i would like to see would include the score PLUS the songs featured in the film
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I love the animated series. For me the best translation of BATMAN in any medium!
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In fairness, that's more an attribute of social networking in superhero comic books and comics-inspired movies, TV, etc. in general, and not so much specific to this movie. It's the sort of thing where if you don't like it, perhaps you ought to stick with other genres, since you're going to get lots of it in this one.
Exactly. And let's not forget that Bruce went there with the hope to see Selina, and she was there to see Max. It's acknowledged in the film -- no lazy writing there.
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I'd stick with the original album, honestly. The LLL set was a mess (not sure how they would characterize it now that it's safely out of print), but the second disc of the original album is there, though. Whichever is cheaper, I say go for it! Their Batman Returns set was much better, but I guess that's gone now, too!
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I got so used to the album edits of some of the cues that hearing the full-length cues sounded wrong. Sounds totally stupid, especially because I don't feel that way at all toward stuff like "Desert Chase" from Raiders, but yeah, I made a Frankensteined version using all of the versions to be released.
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I got so used to the album edits of some of the cues that hearing the full-length cues sounded wrong. Sounds totally stupid, especially because I don't feel that way at all toward stuff like "Desert Chase" from Raiders, but yeah, I made a Frankensteined version using all of the versions to be released.
Not stupid at all. I go back and forth on what version of Helicopter Sequence from Superman is right.
It’s funny, I played Batman half to death from 1989 to about 1994. But for some reason I never had any interest in the expanded CD.
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There's good stuff on the expanded version, but the sound quality is so crazy weird that it's tough to listen to at times.
Now tell me about this other "Helicopter Sequence." Do you mean the Debney re-recording?
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The real gem of the box set is the version of "Joker Flies To Gotham" with the clean ending, as opposed to the music stems version on the LLL. I though the "Attack Of The Batwing" extended version was the same-ish as the LLL version ("Batwing I/Batwing II").
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