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 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 9:28 AM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

If Quo Vadis is next, which I'm really hoping, I'd love if the concert suite was recorded and included in the bonuses. The one that features Hail Nero, Romanza, Arabesque, and Quo Vadis Dominae. The suite really is it's own beast!

Sorry Tadlow will not be doing Quo Vadis ....even though I have permission of EMI Msic publishers who own the music but the Rozsa estate do not want to give me access to the scores held at Syracuse University ... even though EMI has requested his access. So I am moving on to other things as life is too short.... unless there is another set of scores held elsewhere?



Wow! This is disappointing. Wonder why the Rozsa Estate won't cooperate as Tadlow's efforts on Sherlock Holmes and especially EL Cid were tremendous and served Rozsa' music extremely well.


Maybe they think that there is actually money to be made out of new recordings of film music !!!!!!!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 9:57 AM   
 By:   Bob Bryden   (Member)

Well James, it seems you're getting a pretty good consensus here. Let me add my voice to the din and say I look forward to the full orchestral score and can live without the source stuff - besides if I really wanted to create a 'completist' version I could dub them into a CDR from the DVD or laserdisc.
Can't wait to hear what you've done with this baby! (Also would like 'Fall of the Roman Empire' and 'Night of the Hunter'!!) All the best.

 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 10:15 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Not remembering the film very well, I have no opinion on James's question.

That said, I'm surprised at the automatic-seeming alacrity with which many people have responded. "We don't want source music." Curious. I think of so many favorite scores that would be unthinkable without the source music cues. BEN-HUR without the Parade of the Charioteers? PHANTOM MENACE without the equivalent? STAR WARS without the Cantina Band? CITIZEN KANE without the opera scene? THE EGYPTIAN without Horemheb's March? MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY without the Polynesian stuff? DECEPTION without the Cello Concerto?

What do folks have against source music?



There's a big difference of opinion on the definition of that word 'source'. The pieces you cite, John, are diegetic, but not many people would call 'Parade of the Charioteers' or in fact ANY of those pieces 'source' music. 'Source' music is music that comes from an external 'source' REALLY. James is here referring to songs and pieces that were either traditional or by other writers, to be sung 'on-scene' (at least in illusion). It all depends whether Waxman particularly and deliberately arranged them. But he didn't write them.

'Fight for Calahorra' is based on two Cantigas and so 'source' to some, but it's been so arranged and personalised by Rozsa into the dramatic score, that, even though the tunes aren't repeated anywhere else, it's questionable if they'd be called 'source'. But you couldn't do without that piece, it's integral, even if not thematically integral. A piece like 'The Feast of Passover' in 'King of Kings' however is (I'm assuming) TOTALLY source, without really anything of Rozsa's hand in it. It depends on the degree of arrangement.

The 'Taras Bulba' songs are more about dialogue.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 2:58 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

That said, I'm surprised at the automatic-seeming alacrity with which many people have responded. "We don't want source music." Curious. I think of so many favorite scores that would be unthinkable without the source music cues. BEN-HUR without the Parade of the Charioteers?

Eek. I think this usually mild poster is having some fun stirring the pot. Whatever it is technically, no one here would classify this example as "source" music in the sense of separate from the main score (nor "Arrius' Party", nor "fertility Dance"). Yul Brynner singing about hens and foxes, however, can be automatically thought of as both source music and redundant.

What source...er, sauce!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 5:05 PM   
 By:   TJ   (Member)

If Quo Vadis is next, which I'm really hoping, I'd love if the concert suite was recorded and included in the bonuses. The one that features Hail Nero, Romanza, Arabesque, and Quo Vadis Dominae. The suite really is it's own beast!

Sorry Tadlow will not be doing Quo Vadis ....even though I have permission of EMI Msic publishers who own the music but the Rozsa estate do not want to give me access to the scores held at Syracuse University ... even though EMI has requested his access. So I am moving on to other things as life is too short.... unless there is another set of scores held elsewhere?



Wow! This is disappointing. Wonder why the Rozsa Estate won't cooperate as Tadlow's efforts on Sherlock Holmes and especially EL Cid were tremendous and served Rozsa' music extremely well.


Maybe they think that there is actually money to be made out of new recordings of film music !!!!!!!


Well, if the score sheets are unavailable, how much to reconstruct it? big grin

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 5:25 PM   
 By:   Joe Brausam   (Member)

If Quo Vadis is next, which I'm really hoping, I'd love if the concert suite was recorded and included in the bonuses. The one that features Hail Nero, Romanza, Arabesque, and Quo Vadis Dominae. The suite really is it's own beast!

Sorry Tadlow will not be doing Quo Vadis ....even though I have permission of EMI Msic publishers who own the music but the Rozsa estate do not want to give me access to the scores held at Syracuse University ... even though EMI has requested his access. So I am moving on to other things as life is too short.... unless there is another set of scores held elsewhere?



Wow! This is disappointing. Wonder why the Rozsa Estate won't cooperate as Tadlow's efforts on Sherlock Holmes and especially EL Cid were tremendous and served Rozsa' music extremely well.


Maybe they think that there is actually money to be made out of new recordings of film music !!!!!!!


Well, if the score sheets are unavailable, how much to reconstruct it? big grin


It really is a shame that this is the stance the estate has taken. Even with the EXCELLENT FSM restoration a new recording of this is very much needed. Maybe things will change someday and someone will have the opportunity to record it, but until then I'll still enjoy FSM's release! (And still hope for a new recording of the concert suite! wink )

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 7:23 PM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

Source music (the industry term) or diegetic music (used by film scholars) is simply that which emanates (or seems to emanate) from the on-screen action -- a character singing, a radio playing, etc. It can be original or adapted, good or bad, instrumental or vocal, written by the main composer or somebody else. If it is something that the characters might hear, it's source music.

It is also true -- and this is where the confusion arises -- that filmmakers have played around with the boundaries from the earliest days. Those dancers in KING KONG. We see the drums, so it must be source music. But how can Steiner's modern orchestra be laid on top of them? We see the Roman trumpeters, but how can they be playing Rozsa's 20th-century leitmotivs and modern harmonies?

Writers have been intrigued by the shifting boundaries for years. Claudia Gorbman and Royal S. Brown, for example, devote entire chapters to the phenomenon.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 7:32 PM   
 By:   Doc Loch   (Member)

And in terms of diegetic/non-diegetic definitions what do you do with something like the scene in Magnolia where an Aimee Mann song starts as a non-diegetic instrumental, then becomes diegetic as we see one of the characters singing along to it in her apartment, then becomes something else altogether as every major cast member is seen in different locations singing along to the song (including one character in a coma), even though they can't all possibly be listening to it? Still one of my favorite musical moments of any film in recent memory.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 18, 2011 - 7:34 PM   
 By:   Doc Loch   (Member)

Oh, and James, a VERY belated thank you for the Lawrence of Arabia booklet. I really appreciate you making time in your schedule to send it out. Really looking forward to hearing the Taras Bulba recording (and I'll add another vote for not needing the source cues).

 
 Posted:   Jan 19, 2011 - 1:50 AM   
 By:   Loren   (Member)

please keep it uncomplete, cheap and have it released as soon as possible.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 19, 2011 - 2:50 AM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

If Quo Vadis is next, which I'm really hoping, I'd love if the concert suite was recorded and included in the bonuses. The one that features Hail Nero, Romanza, Arabesque, and Quo Vadis Dominae. The suite really is it's own beast!

Sorry Tadlow will not be doing Quo Vadis ....even though I have permission of EMI Msic publishers who own the music but the Rozsa estate do not want to give me access to the scores held at Syracuse University ... even though EMI has requested his access. So I am moving on to other things as life is too short.... unless there is another set of scores held elsewhere?



Wow! This is disappointing. Wonder why the Rozsa Estate won't cooperate as Tadlow's efforts on Sherlock Holmes and especially EL Cid were tremendous and served Rozsa' music extremely well.


Maybe they think that there is actually money to be made out of new recordings of film music !!!!!!!


Well, if the score sheets are unavailable, how much to reconstruct it? big grin


Just really need the sketches ...not even full scores for Nic to do reconstuction like with EL CID....but these we are not allowed to see!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 19, 2011 - 2:51 AM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

If Quo Vadis is next, which I'm really hoping, I'd love if the concert suite was recorded and included in the bonuses. The one that features Hail Nero, Romanza, Arabesque, and Quo Vadis Dominae. The suite really is it's own beast!

Sorry Tadlow will not be doing Quo Vadis ....even though I have permission of EMI Msic publishers who own the music but the Rozsa estate do not want to give me access to the scores held at Syracuse University ... even though EMI has requested his access. So I am moving on to other things as life is too short.... unless there is another set of scores held elsewhere?



Wow! This is disappointing. Wonder why the Rozsa Estate won't cooperate as Tadlow's efforts on Sherlock Holmes and especially EL Cid were tremendous and served Rozsa' music extremely well.


Maybe they think that there is actually money to be made out of new recordings of film music !!!!!!!


Well, if the score sheets are unavailable, how much to reconstruct it? big grin


Just really need the sketches ...not even full scores for Nic to do reconstuction like with EL CID....but these we are not allowed to see!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 19, 2011 - 5:28 AM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

Writers have been intrigued by the shifting boundaries for years. Claudia Gorbman and Royal S. Brown, for example, devote entire chapters to the phenomenon.

Well, I think there are probably better things they could have been doing, like the washing up.

Here's a case though, which probably doesn't fit the current category. 50s British film set in WWII. Starts with a guy driving a jeep through the desert behind the Main Titles. As the title theme fades out, the guy starts whistling it, which is completely ridiculous as it's an entirely original tune written for the film. What would that be categorised as, other than utter stupidity?

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2011 - 9:30 AM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

Don't need the source music.

Tadlow, don't hate me for asking this, but can we have a complete Quo Vadis next? What are the chances?


Sorry no chance of Quo Vadis with Tadlow ... only wish I could .... and I do have the finance ... but politics of ownership are involved.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2011 - 10:53 AM   
 By:   guest   (Member)



Perhaps another label is recording the score?

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2011 - 11:02 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Perhaps another label is recording the score?

If so I suspect it would be Varese, since Joel McNeely held that poll as to what people wanted as the next re-recording he did for them after North by Northwest. Quo Vadis was what won the poll. It's been a while now, and maybe Robert Townson is waiting for the Herrmann to sell out of 3000 copies first before he shells out any more dough or something.

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2011 - 11:30 AM   
 By:   PFK   (Member)

No need to spend money on songs & source music James. Use that money for the next CD you will hopefully do.

I am greatly looking forward to Taras Bulba. I have all the Tadlow CDs and they are SUPER!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2011 - 7:25 PM   
 By:   jonathan_little   (Member)

It's rather depressing to think that somebody who is managing Rozsa's estate seems to think the composer's music is better served by having the score rot away in a box at Syracuse University rather than letting James record and present it to Rozsa fans across the world.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2011 - 7:07 AM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

It's rather depressing to think that somebody who is managing Rozsa's estate seems to think the composer's music is better served by having the score rot away in a box at Syracuse University rather than letting James record and present it to Rozsa fans across the world.

As I said before I think that maybe they believe that there is financial gain to be had from these type of recordings ....how wrong they are. Did a very rough costing on all the money I have spent on recordings over the past 6 years...and the payback from sales. So far it is running that I have made 55% to 60% recoupment on these titles ....so only lost 35% to 40% of the investment!!!!

 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2011 - 8:33 AM   
 By:   Chris Rimmer   (Member)

It's rather depressing to think that somebody who is managing Rozsa's estate seems to think the composer's music is better served by having the score rot away in a box at Syracuse University rather than letting James record and present it to Rozsa fans across the world.

As I said before I think that maybe they believe that there is financial gain to be had from these type of recordings ....how wrong they are. Did a very rough costing on all the money I have spent on recordings over the past 6 years...and the payback from sales. So far it is running that I have made 55% to 60% recoupment on these titles ....so only lost 35% to 40% of the investment!!!!


OUCH!!!!

 
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