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 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 11:20 AM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

In general I'd be more willing to support Tribute/Tadlow re-recordings than original soundtrack releases from say Intrada & La-La Land because of the different nature of these projects and the kind of manpower that goes into them

I agree.

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 11:54 AM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

Would there be a separate kickstarter for each different title?

Or would there be a kind of general kickstarter, where $20 gets you the 2014 title by the label in question of your choosing, $50 gets you three titles, $500 gets you all the titles, $1000 gets you lunch with the head of the label, etc?

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 12:13 PM   
 By:   counterpoint   (Member)

I guess it depends on the project. I would gladly pay some money upfront for a DALLAS box set for example with scores from each season. As well as a box set of Scarecrow and Mrs. King or Father Dowling Mysteries. Like I said it definetely depends on the project.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 12:20 PM   
 By:   manderley   (Member)

.....Hi Lukas, Its an interesting idea and one I've been waiting to see if a label would give it a try.....


I'm aware of Kickstarter, and I've been reading this thread, and it seems like a good idea, but I wonder if any of you are old enough to remember ELMER BERNSTEIN'S FILM MUSIC COLLECTION from the 1970s.

I don't recall the exact financial details of the Bernstein system, but I think we joined "the collection," paying an upfront membership fee (which got us the quarterly magazine), and then had to guarantee, up front, our purchase of a set number of releases each year. (It would be interesting to know just how many of us there were.)

As each of these was announced (but not yet recorded), we sent in our purchase money (somewhere between $10-20) for the planned release and eventually---often many, many months or more---the release arrived in our mail. I don't remember the exact number of yearly releases---3 or 4 perhaps---but it always seemed to be on a very random basis.

Before slowly fading, I think there were about 12-14 releases in the collection, and as most of you know, the bulk of the re-recordings were worthy---and a few were really excellent.

The scores were mostly classic, in an age where there were still buyers for these classics in far greater numbers than today, but even then, "the collection" finally went away, and Bernstein later acknowledged he had lost money on the project. (I hope he was able to partially recoup via a business tax loss write-off against his real movie scoring income.)

The idea was good in theory and Bernstein was brave to tackle it in the first place. But even with best intents, I think the lesson was that you needed outside capital in large amounts to keep it going (which Bernstein, unfortunately, had to supply out of his own pocket), and regular and steady releases which would provide cash flow.

As I recall, there were also endless digs by individuals---very similar to what we read here each day---about the budget packaging and art, the quality of the pressings, the orchestra size and selection, the recorded sound, and the long waits for the releases to arrive. Bernstein also had to contend with the suggestions and requests of the fans---since they were "partners" in the collection, so to speak---and then what they would actually buy. I stuck with it to the bitter end, got some nice recordings which were unmatched until years later, and fully enjoyed what I got.

It seems to me that if I were a record producer, however, I'd want to find my own financing, and, while dependent on consumers for sales, be my own man, make my own gambles, and determine---on my own---the business directions on what and how to release without a lot of initial input from the fans---who are fickle at best.

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 12:24 PM   
 By:   mstrox   (Member)

.....Hi Lukas, Its an interesting idea and one I've been waiting to see if a label would give it a try.....


I'm aware of Kickstarter, and I've been reading this thread, and it seems like a good idea, but I wonder if any of you are old enough to remember ELMER BERNSTEIN'S FILM MUSIC COLLECTION from the 1970s.


I'd hope he's aware of that collection - he produced the lavish CD box set of those releases

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm/CDID/366/Elmer-Bernsteins-Film-Music-Collection/

smile

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 12:31 PM   
 By:   Midnight Mike   (Member)

PBS is not in the business of making a profit. We are talking about privately owned companies who's business is to make money.

If the project isn't fully funded, I'll get to keep my money, and if it is, I'm sure I'll get my money's worth, and perhaps a tote bag too!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 12:40 PM   
 By:   Kim Tong   (Member)

.....Hi Lukas, Its an interesting idea and one I've been waiting to see if a label would give it a try.....


I'm aware of Kickstarter, and I've been reading this thread, and it seems like a good idea, but I wonder if any of you are old enough to remember ELMER BERNSTEIN'S FILM MUSIC COLLECTION from the 1970s.

I don't recall the exact financial details of the Bernstein system, but I think we joined "the collection," paying an upfront membership fee (which got us the quarterly magazine), and then had to guarantee, up front, our purchase of a set number of releases each year. (It would be interesting to know just how many of us there were.)

As each of these was announced (but not yet recorded), we sent in our purchase money (somewhere between $10-20) for the planned release and eventually---often many, many months or more---the release arrived in our mail. I don't remember the exact number of yearly releases---3 or 4 perhaps---but it always seemed to be on a very random basis.

Before slowly fading, I think there were about 12-14 releases in the collection, and as most of you know, the bulk of the re-recordings were worthy---and a few were really excellent.

The scores were mostly classic, in an age where there were still buyers for these classics in far greater numbers than today, but even then, "the collection" finally went away, and Bernstein later acknowledged he had lost money on the project. (I hope he was able to partially recoup via a business tax loss write-off against his real movie scoring income.)

The idea was good in theory and Bernstein was brave to tackle it in the first place. But even with best intents, I think the lesson was that you needed outside capital in large amounts to keep it going (which Bernstein, unfortunately, had to supply out of his own pocket), and regular and steady releases which would provide cash flow.

As I recall, there were also endless digs by individuals---very similar to what we read here each day---about the budget packaging and art, the quality of the pressings, the orchestra size and selection, the recorded sound, and the long waits for the releases to arrive. Bernstein also had to contend with the suggestions and requests of the fans---since they were "partners" in the collection, so to speak---and then what they would actually buy. I stuck with it to the bitter end, got some nice recordings which were unmatched until years later, and fully enjoyed what I got.

It seems to me that if I were a record producer, however, I'd want to find my own financing, and, while dependent on consumers for sales, be my own man, make my own gambles, and determine---on my own---the business directions on what and how to release without a lot of initial input from the fans---who are fickle at best.


So, I just learned a lot about the ELMER BERNSTEIN'S FILM MUSIC COLLECTION, thanks manderley. My Dad never mentioned he was a member, but he has many of the LPs (a few are PROMOS) that he said he picked up in used record stores. Since I gave him the FSM Set for Christmas the year it came out, I am going to pass this information on to him. With this being a collection like that, why would they have made PROMO LPs? Were they still sending them to record stores and radio station to play for promoting the club?

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 1:18 PM   
 By:   Warunsun   (Member)

I have a feeling -- and I stress, this is just a hunch -- that the soundtrack crowd would likely rally around some magnum opuses, but not most of the more obscure or run-of-the-mill releases.

I agree.

I have purchased things on Kickstarter and generally there is a promised time of less than one year for delivery. Often times the promised time for delivery is only 4 to 6 months. Three of the projects I have backed were late. I fully expected one of them to be late and do understand the nature of Kickstarter means that projects are late often. Reading some forum comments around here I can't imagine too many folks would be happy with 10 to 12 pre-orders being behind or late.

A lot of Kickstarters involve creative endeavors where the background work and creation is already done and they are only looking for cash to print/produce the items. Soundtracks involve as you say "months or even years" of technical work and legal stuff. It really is not compatible with Kickstarter expectations.

All that being said I think a really important and big project like the Star Trek TOS Soundtrack Collection could work on Kickstarter.

Also keep in mind that Kickstarter projects often promise extra bonuses like digital releases to go to the backers before physical items are ready. Often PDF files are e-mailed while physical books are getting printed. It would be the expectation of the average Kickstarter funder to get free MP3 downloads. I very much doubt the specialty labels would be into that idea.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 1:34 PM   
 By:   merlyn   (Member)

Great Idea

Lyn

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 1:46 PM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)


So, I just learned a lot about the ELMER BERNSTEIN'S FILM MUSIC COLLECTION, thanks manderley. My Dad never mentioned he was a member, but he has many of the LPs (a few are PROMOS) that he said he picked up in used record stores. Since I gave him the FSM Set for Christmas the year it came out, I am going to pass this information on to him. With this being a collection like that, why would they have made PROMO LPs? Were they still sending them to record stores and radio station to play for promoting the club?


Many of those LPs arrived in the UK marked PROMO COPY. I've no idea why they were marked that way but they were obviously not genuine promo copies. I assume it something to do with facilitating their sale in retail stores.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 1:57 PM   
 By:   Jeff M   (Member)

As someone who has run a successful Kickstarter, doubling my original goal, and having backed several projects, some of which have succeeded, some of which failed, some of which have ended in scandal, I am still 100 percent FOR Kickstarter and crowdfunding. I think it’s the future. And I think soundtrack labels should jump on board.

In my own Kickstarter’s case, I’d already written and illustrated a kid’s book that simply needed to be printed, bound, and shipped to people’s door. Though I didn't have to deal with studios, or jump through legal hoops, I diid have to consider the time it would take for me to do everything, sign books, deal with the printers, pay for shipping, pay for rewards, Kickstarter fees, taxes, pay for packaging, and on and on. I'm sure soundtrack labels are MORE than equipped to deal with this. I tried to figure all that stuff out BEFORE I even began the Kickstarter, and I’m definitely one of the few projects that delivered on schedule and on budget, but I left myself a HUGE buffer in case things didnt go according to plan. What ever does?

The key to running a successful Kickstarter is the need to keep everything transparent, involve the backers, and only make promises you know you can deliver on.

Backers are excited to see the finished work. Always. That’s why they back. Nobody gives you money because they want to see you fail. They are also surprisingly patient, most projects have delivery dates set years into the future. If you let backers know why it’s taking so long, they usually understand. What soundtrack HASN’T been delayed already by months if not years if not decades?

If goals are clear, budgets are considered, legal hoops are factored in, there is no reason why labels can’t deliver as they already do every month in holy grails.

Now money doesn't solve everything. If Columbia needs 1 million dollars in advance to relinquish the rights to Faltermeyer's 80s scores and the powers that be are run by Bobby Prissy Pants who doesn't want to release those scores because he hates synthesizers, it’s not realistic to run a Kickstarter that says you are going to release it.

But if label X goes on Kickstarter and says we've already done the research, and made the deals, and jumped through the legal hoops, and we can release the scores to Beverly Hills Cop, Fletch, and Top, Gun, but we need to pay MCA, Columbia, Paramount each $100,000 dollars in advance, plus the cost to cover Kickstarter fees, rewards, making the cds and shipping them out which is another $100,000, that’s $400,000.

Now add another $50,000 because you never know what’s going to go wrong.

So you need almost half a million to get those scores out there. (In reality I have NO IDEA what the real cost is, or what is actually holding these releases up) but I think you can raise that kind of money because soundtracks fans like me are crazy, and even more people are dying for our Faltermeyer.

Now I personally think you HAVE to establish WHY you need the money, and make that very VERY clear to the audience. People talked lots of trash about Spike Lee, and Zach Braf for getting on Kickstarter because people assumed both of them have fountains of gold in their backyards. Zach Braff made it pretty clear he'd already put a ton of his own money in, but Spike didn't really go out of his way to say look, I have a lot of money already, but I need more for X,Y and Z, and he got a lot of grief for it. They both met their goals however, and people are genuinely excited to see what they're going to do.

One positive way to look at all of this, is if a Kickstarter fails to reach its goal, NO ONE SPENDS ANY MONEY. No harm done. It's a great way to gauge interest, but people certainly have to know the campaign is out there. A successful campaign is also about promotion and spreading the word that any given project exists at all for those thirty days.

A breakdown for some Beverly Hills Cop rewards could look something like this:

$10.00 Gets you a digital download of the soundtrack

$25 Gets you a physical cd limited to this kickstarter only, after that, NO MORE.

$30 Get’s special thanks in the liner notes

$50 Gives you fancy behind the scenes footage of Lukas Kendal spilling blood on the cross for angry soundtrack fans

$80 Harold faltermyer plays you happy birthday on a synthesizer

and so on.

I wouldn't be the only person to be jazzed about backing.

If anyone is curious about my own Kickstarter project, it was called "Clarence and The Spoon." You can check it out here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1087986687/clarence-and-the-spoon I’d also be happy to answer any questions directly regarding my own experience on Kickstarter.

I definitely want to do another Kickstarter in the future, and I was even thinking about doing one to make unique illustrations of film composers, since so few exist. But that's for another time.

Bottom line, I want my Beverly Hills Cop, Fletch, and Top Gun score. Go for it.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 2:01 PM   
 By:   Jeff M   (Member)

Double post, delete.

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 4:49 PM   
 By:   tyuan   (Member)

I have payed lots of money for Turrican Anthology more than one year ago.
The project should have been released within 6 months.
The man behind, Chris Huellsbeck, after more than one year has not released the anthology yet. So I will never give my money to Kickstarter again, because the release date of these "kickstarter projects" is never sure. I don't want to wait years to get a cd after my payment!!

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 4:56 PM   
 By:   mastadge   (Member)

People are funny.

I had a bad meal at McDonald's once so I'm never eating at a restaurant again!

I'd rather have zero chance of obtaining a product I'd like than chip in to make it possible!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 5:04 PM   
 By:   Kevin Costigan   (Member)

Lots of people would jump at the chance to donate to a Kickstarter. The biggest challenge will be dealing with those who already feel "entitled" to how a label presents material. Once they actually put forward money to a project, if they happen to be in the wacko personality category, expect calls, demands, rants, criticisms beyond which we've yet seen. Let a collector think hes an investor and you will be in for the brunt of that.

Is it worth the effort? Remember how important it is to some labels to keep info close to the belt? When you let others invest in a project, the gloves will come off. Demands on how its presented, when they will get their return and god forbid the project is held up by the studio. Try telling that to some of your clientel.

Sad that a small percentage can make that much stir around here, but you must respect the personalities and how those known folks will behave when there are given real power to support a prohect getting done.

Enter at risk.

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 8:31 PM   
 By:   La La Land Records   (Member)

Lots of people would jump at the chance to donate to a Kickstarter. The biggest challenge will be dealing with those who already feel "entitled" to how a label presents material. Once they actually put forward money to a project, if they happen to be in the wacko personality category, expect calls, demands, rants, criticisms beyond which we've yet seen. Let a collector think hes an investor and you will be in for the brunt of that.

Is it worth the effort? Remember how important it is to some labels to keep info close to the belt? When you let others invest in a project, the gloves will come off. Demands on how its presented, when they will get their return and god forbid the project is held up by the studio. Try telling that to some of your clientel.

Sad that a small percentage can make that much stir around here, but you must respect the personalities and how those known folks will behave when there are given real power to support a prohect getting done.

Enter at risk.


We actually have a name for those people -- the 5 Percenters.

smile

MV

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 11:00 PM   
 By:   tarasis   (Member)

I have payed lots of money for Turrican Anthology more than one year ago.
The project should have been released within 6 months.
The man behind, Chris Huellsbeck, after more than one year has not released the anthology yet. So I will never give my money to Kickstarter again, because the release date of these "kickstarter projects" is never sure. I don't want to wait years to get a cd after my payment!!


I backed the same Kickstarter Project, at the $75 level, but I haven't found the delay as off putting as you apparently. The completion dates are always estimates, some KS hit them others don't but it's to be expected when it's a creative process and I'd rather its ships late & is great than ships ASAP and is either poor or just OK. I guess collecting soundtracks I've got used to things taking a long time and slipping.

Anyway I'm looking forward to the Vince DiCola Trasformers track that will be on the album/USB stick.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 11:40 PM   
 By:   Peoplearefunny   (Member)

Lots of people would jump at the chance to donate to a Kickstarter. The biggest challenge will be dealing with those who already feel "entitled" to how a label presents material. Once they actually put forward money to a project, if they happen to be in the wacko personality category, expect calls, demands, rants, criticisms beyond which we've yet seen. Let a collector think hes an investor and you will be in for the brunt of that.

Is it worth the effort? Remember how important it is to some labels to keep info close to the belt? When you let others invest in a project, the gloves will come off. Demands on how its presented, when they will get their return and god forbid the project is held up by the studio. Try telling that to some of your clientel.

Sad that a small percentage can make that much stir around here, but you must respect the personalities and how those known folks will behave when there are given real power to support a prohect getting done.

Enter at risk.


True.

Problem some have to understand is that as a donor to KS I am not entitled to ANYTHING since it is viewed as a donation. If a label makes a promise, they should honor it but according to the TOS at Kickstarter the donors do not "own" the project in any way, shape or form. If I give the top tier to any project one hopes the people who made promises to me keep them. But they are not entitled to treat anybody like they are an owner.

Sure, the risk of wackos is always prevalent in any creative/business venture where OPM is involved but KS is worth it. I am involved in a movie that used KS and hit our goals. None of the strangers who gave us money have once acted like prima donnas or demanded anything unreasonable. We treated them above and beyond what a lot of $10-$100 donors get on most projects.

KS should not be mistaken as an equity partnership. It is a donation service or crowdfunding source. Nothing more.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2013 - 11:46 PM   
 By:   Peoplearefunny   (Member)

As someone who has run a successful Kickstarter, doubling my original goal, and having backed several projects, some of which have succeeded, some of which failed, some of which have ended in scandal, I am still 100 percent FOR Kickstarter and crowdfunding. I think it’s the future. And I think soundtrack labels should jump on board.

In my own Kickstarter’s case, I’d already written and illustrated a kid’s book that simply needed to be printed, bound, and shipped to people’s door. Though I didn't have to deal with studios, or jump through legal hoops, I diid have to consider the time it would take for me to do everything, sign books, deal with the printers, pay for shipping, pay for rewards, Kickstarter fees, taxes, pay for packaging, and on and on. I'm sure soundtrack labels are MORE than equipped to deal with this. I tried to figure all that stuff out BEFORE I even began the Kickstarter, and I’m definitely one of the few projects that delivered on schedule and on budget, but I left myself a HUGE buffer in case things didnt go according to plan. What ever does?

The key to running a successful Kickstarter is the need to keep everything transparent, involve the backers, and only make promises you know you can deliver on.

Backers are excited to see the finished work. Always. That’s why they back. Nobody gives you money because they want to see you fail. They are also surprisingly patient, most projects have delivery dates set years into the future. If you let backers know why it’s taking so long, they usually understand. What soundtrack HASN’T been delayed already by months if not years if not decades?

If goals are clear, budgets are considered, legal hoops are factored in, there is no reason why labels can’t deliver as they already do every month in holy grails.

Now money doesn't solve everything. If Columbia needs 1 million dollars in advance to relinquish the rights to Faltermeyer's 80s scores and the powers that be are run by Bobby Prissy Pants who doesn't want to release those scores because he hates synthesizers, it’s not realistic to run a Kickstarter that says you are going to release it.

But if label X goes on Kickstarter and says we've already done the research, and made the deals, and jumped through the legal hoops, and we can release the scores to Beverly Hills Cop, Fletch, and Top, Gun, but we need to pay MCA, Columbia, Paramount each $100,000 dollars in advance, plus the cost to cover Kickstarter fees, rewards, making the cds and shipping them out which is another $100,000, that’s $400,000.

Now add another $50,000 because you never know what’s going to go wrong.

So you need almost half a million to get those scores out there. (In reality I have NO IDEA what the real cost is, or what is actually holding these releases up) but I think you can raise that kind of money because soundtracks fans like me are crazy, and even more people are dying for our Faltermeyer.

Now I personally think you HAVE to establish WHY you need the money, and make that very VERY clear to the audience. People talked lots of trash about Spike Lee, and Zach Braf for getting on Kickstarter because people assumed both of them have fountains of gold in their backyards. Zach Braff made it pretty clear he'd already put a ton of his own money in, but Spike didn't really go out of his way to say look, I have a lot of money already, but I need more for X,Y and Z, and he got a lot of grief for it. They both met their goals however, and people are genuinely excited to see what they're going to do.

One positive way to look at all of this, is if a Kickstarter fails to reach its goal, NO ONE SPENDS ANY MONEY. No harm done. It's a great way to gauge interest, but people certainly have to know the campaign is out there. A successful campaign is also about promotion and spreading the word that any given project exists at all for those thirty days.

A breakdown for some Beverly Hills Cop rewards could look something like this:

$10.00 Gets you a digital download of the soundtrack

$25 Gets you a physical cd limited to this kickstarter only, after that, NO MORE.

$30 Get’s special thanks in the liner notes

$50 Gives you fancy behind the scenes footage of Lukas Kendal spilling blood on the cross for angry soundtrack fans

$80 Harold faltermyer plays you happy birthday on a synthesizer

and so on.

I wouldn't be the only person to be jazzed about backing.

If anyone is curious about my own Kickstarter project, it was called "Clarence and The Spoon." You can check it out here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1087986687/clarence-and-the-spoon I’d also be happy to answer any questions directly regarding my own experience on Kickstarter.

I definitely want to do another Kickstarter in the future, and I was even thinking about doing one to make unique illustrations of film composers, since so few exist. But that's for another time.

Bottom line, I want my Beverly Hills Cop, Fletch, and Top Gun score. Go for it.


Jeff, one problem with your post. If I was a label I would not publicize what I am doing as the deal could fall through if say a studio or rights holder sees the label is using kickstarter to pay them for it. My first thought as a rights holder would be "these guys don't have the money? Am I going to have to deal with all these strangers?" Some people do not understand crowdfunding.

If I was going after something, I'd make an agreement with the party and then list it as a rare, limited edition release from Harold Faltermeyer, for example. If I say what title, what stops one of these label's competitors from jumping in to call the owner of the master and say "label x is begging for money on KS and I can pay you right now for that master!"

While the relationships at these labels may prevent that from happening, what's to stop a studio from saying no once they see somebody publicizing the need for money to close a deal on KS?

Labels need to be careful they either let the owners know they are using KS for funding or they keep the details to the composers involved and leave it to the imagination of backers.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 8:08 AM   
 By:   Lukas Kendall   (Member)

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies. Very interesting. There does not seem to be a consensus opinion, but the comments are well put.

The specialty labels have become a victim of their own success. In the 1990s, Roger at Intrada used to make an April Fool's Day new release list. It contained titles that everybody always wanted but were such a fantasy that it was easy to tell the list was a joke: Back to the Future complete, Alien complete, Star Trek II complete. Today, I'd venture that almost every title on his joke release list is available—just a click away—and at reasonable prices.

If I asked today, "what's your remaining Holy Grail release?" I would no longer get the same five titles named by 50 people—I'd probably get a list of 45 titles. Back to the Future was a Holy Grail to just about everyone...the titles suggested now are far more personal and obscure. I can honestly say I am asked to release things that I have not only never heard, but I have never heard OF—the title or the composer.

Today, there are fewer CD collectors due to age and satiation—people have less money to spend due to the still-soft economy, and there are far fewer "blockbuster" titles left to replenish the labels' coffers. When we released a title like The Omega Man, The Towering Inferno or The Man From U.N.C.L.E., we had "one-timers" come out of nowhere in the thousands who didn't buy or care about soundtracks in general, but they were movie fans who had to have that particular CD. That money paid for the year's overhead and for the titles (and there are a lot of them) that barely break even or lose money altogether.

And remember: the labels can't, literally can't, raise prices. People would rebel if the regular CD release went higher than $19.99 (which is already quite high).

I closed down FSM for a variety of reasons, but one of them was that the business just didn't seem viable anymore. It certainly didn't seem to have room to grow. I have stayed involved to help produce/consult for the other labels, but I caution everyone to adapt to a changing world.

I have some ideas as to HOW to adapt to that changing world which I'll share later... Do you guys have any?

Lukas

 
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