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Posted: |
Aug 9, 2011 - 10:11 AM
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By: |
bdm
(Member)
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EDIT: Wow, lots of folks chimed in while I wrote this, so some other points have already been covered. BACK TO ORIGINAL POST
Okay Thor, I'll have a bash. Scott - Oldsmith covered some key things already:
PLANET OF THE APES
* As previously mentioned, one must really question the integrity of the spaceships that seem to crash all over the place.
Covered already - Taylor's message/mono at the film's beginning establishes that he expected to teturn to Earth, just that time had passed on Earth but not for them, so what world would he return to et al...
* Note how the sound of Charlton Heston's exaggerated laugh is out of synch with the careful smile that is visually shown during the "planting-of-the-flag" scene.
It's a 60's thing.... Oh, and Taylor's comments re Steward are ironical, refering to the situation at hand - they have crashed on an alien world and will ultimately die there, plus he saw that even more time had passed on the chrono as he escaped the ship...
* What's up with the blue-flashing lightning effects? Is that supposed to indicate a ruined atmosphere?
Lightning - set's up alien world for us.
* What are the scarecrows for?
Keep the Humans out - remember that we see humans running above Taylor and the boys in the Forbidden Zone. Zaius does refer to humans coming in and eating crops - pests.
1. Why do the Apes speak English? (In ESCAPE, we are told that "that is the language that has been taught us for generations" and that's about it).
Uh, 1) it's what's left of America (perhaps they speak other languages on other locations on the planet),
2) ...Same reason Germans speak english in most American movies - audience can follow the story.
3) saves time as Taylor can understand his captors; 1 less thing for him to learn/understand.
* A major problem with the entire franchise is how the apes look! I'll get back to this later.
....It's actor's under Academy Award Winning make up - they look pretty impressive actually.
(In the new RISE OF flick, the CGI apes look like apes, but as the film proceeds Caesar looks more 'human' as he stands straighter and t***CENSORED*** t film's end.)
2. Why are the apes so incredibly harsh to the humans if they are unaware of how humans treated them in the past?
The first film is an allegory - it's about us; best TWILIGHT ZONE episode ever (Rod Serling had a big hand in the screenplay); as we care cruel to animals (hunting, harvesting, etc) so are the Apes/us.
3. Why do the apes not question their own past prior to "The Lawgiver" 1200 years ago?
Again, allegory - Religion rules (like Catholic Church in Middle Ages); Zaius is head of science and protector of the faith. Also this is a small farming town; ever been to a small farming town where religion is questoined? Bible Belt all the way.
4. And related to the above, where are the reversed bible quotes culled from? The Lawgiver?
Yes, the Lawgiver is their 'Christ.'
* Pretty amazing that Heston suddenly has shaving foam at his disposal towards the end of the film.
...He found it in the cave...
5. Cornelius says that his findings suggest a more advanced society the longer into the past he got. The film intends to say that that ancient society belonged to the humans. But weren't the apes already well-developed and "advanced" in the early 2000's or whenever armageddon kicked in?
Cornelius says that he found evidence of a more advanced Ape Culture, then - much to his surprise - an even more advanced civilization before that, which he finds strange as society should evolve in his mind - no idea how they could devolve. His findings go against the scriptures.
As he has no idea what these artifacts are, Taylor explains them (he still hasn't figured out he's home yet) and helps C and Z prove their findings to Zauis with the talking doll....
BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES - The Apes franchise suffers from the old Hollywood way of cutting the budget of each sequel by half, as opposed to modern Hollywood of doubling it.
* Note how Heston's haircut (and general look) differs radically in the newly inserted reaction cut when he sees the Statue of Liberty in the intro.
Typical....
6. Pretty amazing that Brent's spacecraft crashes exactly in the same postapocalyptic New York area that Taylor crashed in. And exactly at the same time. How could they follow Taylor's trajectory?
Already covered.
7. As mentioned elsewhere, why send out a rescue mission for a spacecraft intended for colonization?
Again, original wasn't intened for that - Taylor's wry humour...
8. Zaius wants to go looking for life in the Forbidden Zone. Isn't the first film suggesting that he is already aware of human, intelligent existence?
True - picks up his points from previous film. Out to eliminate the pests...
9. Why haven't Cornelius and Zira been accused of herecy, as suggested in the prequel? Why are they still allowed to work as scientists?
Implied is that Zauis lets them off hook and they keep their findings secret (Zauis does appear to have sympathy for Taylor and the chimps at the original's end...)
10. Zaius says they don't want "martyrs" when they encounter the chimpanze(sp.?) demonstration before the army heads for the Forbidden Zone. Isn't killing another ape already outlawed by the "ape shall not kill ape"-routine?
True -again; alegory - anti-war statement. I doubt that Ursus intends for his gorillas to kill the protestors, but they might beat them - martyrs.
* What's up with that subterranean fountain that Brent and Nova drinks from? First he tastes the water and realizes it's not drinkable. Then it suddenly is. And is it the water that "poisons" his mind or the brainwaves of some of the omnipresent superhumans?
Mutants run his mind, and turn on fresh water which is drinkalbe (as opposed to stale water in fountain). He then is made to drown Nova...
* Does biology and evolutional theory really indicate that humans are able to read minds in 2000 years? Ok, I'll take this as regular artistic liberty. Maybe it's the radio-activity that does it, I don't know.
They are mutants - and it is sci-fi...
11. Why did the superhumans not get the ape "scouts" to reveal secrets? If they suggest that apes are immune to mindbending, then why are they nevertheless able to see the visions? This point lacks clarification.
The mutants say the scouts were stupid - they know the location of ape city, etc....
12. If the superhumans know so little about the ape plans, then where do they have all their information from in terms of the Lawgiver etc.? How did they manage to collect all this, but not the trivial info as to what they're up to?
Scouts would know this (Lawgiver/society stuff), but not their general's and government's plans.
* How the hell does a nuclear bomb firing mechanism end up in a cathedral, anyway?
It is the basis of the mutant religion - one of the earlier Mendezes moved it there.
13. How can Taylor simply fall through the "mountain vision" and into captivity when others (like Zaius) can ride through and nothing happens?
Mutants were waiting for Taylor...
* Zaius says that "this is the tunnel that our scoutS have reported" when it is previously stated that only ONE out of twelve scouts have made it back to report anything at all.
Actually, it is said that the scout reported lots, but it was crazy/insane stuff....
14. If the apes are indeed subject to mindpower, then why is there no resistance AT ALL when they storm the city below?
True - you think the mutants would have had the apes shoot each other - but the mind control isn't absolute - Brent breaks free from Nova, and the Apes one Law (not kill ape) probablly breaks the control...
ESCAPE FROM PLANET OF THE APES
15. How did Cornelius and Zira acquire the skills and knowledge to raise the spaceship from the water (not to mention locate its whereabouts), and also - in the short timespan between the ape march to the forbidden zone and the detonation of the bomb, raise it from the water, repair it and then take off? And why would they leave the planet when they were unaware of the danger that awaited them?
This is where I agree with you - though in the original Taylor tells them where he crashed, so they do know the location. And they do say that Dr. Milo fixed the ship...
...Also, don't they mention they found the ship washed up on shore...? While this would seem unlikely, when ships sink not all go right to the bottom; some have air pockets that keep the hulk below the surface for awhile (collisions with sunken wrecks happens in shipping lanes all the time).
Still, this is a stretch - keep the franchise going baby!
16. How were Cornelius and Zira able to hit the exact same location (LA?) and time (well, only two years later) that Taylor came from?
Actually they arrive in a different location - Milo not as good with computors as they thought.
* Why do the humans usually refer to them as apes rather than the more common term "monkeys"?
Covered
* ...which brings me back to the question of ape appearances and their credibility. Why are they put in the zoo and treated - initially - as any other ape when they are clearly extremely human-looking, large and walk and behave (not to mention dress) like a human? That this feature of the apes is not questioned more thoroughly is a recurring and MAJOR problem througout the entire franchise, but most clearly in the opening of ESCAPE.
Make up and suspension of disbelief...
* One would think that plates, knives and forks are not exactly essential things to bring when the world is about to end....
They don't know the world is about to end, they just see the explosion - which launches them into the time warp I believe... though that could be from CONQUEST...
* Why not use a real gorilla for the "depressed gorilla" in the next cage rather than the poor-looking man-in-a-suit thingie?
You covered that with how the apes look - work that make-up!
* Dr. Dixon reads the report ON HIS WAY to the zoo. That's pretty sloppy work.
Moive Dr.s do it all the time
...No, really.
* The reaction to the apes' intial talking is rather unimpressive and unconvincing, and is too rapidly "accepted".
Keep the story moving - the humans in the lab do react to be fair.
* You can't get more stereotypical than the international TV news reporters portrayed here. This is, incidentally, the only global glimpse we get in the entire series.
Welcome to low budget hollywood (half the budget of half the budget....)
* The film is generally plagued with redundant dialogue, or rather OVER-EXPLICIT dialogue that explains to us and sums up everything we see happen onscreen. There is an even more horrible example of this in the next film.
See above.
17. How does Cornelius know that humans used to hunt animals "for sport"?
He reads that in the passage from the lawgiver in the original.
* Hasslein's nonsensical time-theory about the "highways and lanes of the future" are amusingly circular and void.
Have you watched a STAR TREK episode?
* How can Zira get drunk enough to reveal secrets 5 seconds after drinking a glass of "grapejuice plus"?
Hol-ly-wooood!
* Also amusing to notice how the president is far more (and stereotypically) concerned with reelection rather than the revolutional, world-overturning event of "human" apes, when he is confronted by Hasslein with the option of killing them.
William Windom plays the scene well - what would you do, as time has now changed, so will this world they come from actually happen (turns out it does, and doesn't....), and it's a real moment - these apes are popular; how do you just kill them?
18. Why is the term "monkey" offensive to the apes when they are allegedly unaware of humans that might have called them that in the past?
Allegory again.
* Why on earth would someone choose apes as pets when cats and dogs are gone? Apes are expensive and hard to come by, and are usually only comfortable in selected climatic areas.
Same reason some have them as pets now?
19. How does Cornelius know about the semian rise to power when he intially didn't even know (for sure) that humans existed as superior beings in the past?
He found out at the end of the first film - probably extrapolated that Zauis told him and Zira everything in exchange for their silence...?
20. Zira says that apes were turned into slaves 200 years after they became pets and then Aldo was the first ape to say "NO!" 300 years after that. This, of course, is wrong on several points. First of all - and according to the sequel - apes are turned into slaves already in the early 1990's. And then Aldo came around already in the early 2000's (approximately) and - as I will get back to - he was not the first to say "no" to the humans. In fact, the franchise never says who was the first to say "no", but rather implies that CAESAR was the first to REBEL!
The apes arrival changes everything, and it's just a movie; we really need a life! AND who knew there would be another film at this point - remember the films evolved over time with no sequel in the works until film before it did well. We need Roddy McDowell in flicks, so do we stick with characters we know in next film, or do we jump ahead 300 years and will we have the budget to do that?
Shrinking Budget affected these films.
21. Of course, Cornelius and Zira do not really make a difference to the eventual dominance of the apes, as Hasslein suggests. But then again, it is hard for him to know that at this point.
Uh, they bring Caesar into the mix, which works out better for humans in the long run...
22. The commision claims that apes will treat humans no differently than the way humans treat apes today. In light of the horrible way apes treated humans in the first film, however, this is of course not true.
No, it's true - been to a zoo, or a lab?
* Note how the final shots of Milo/Caesar's "ma-ma-ma-ma" mumbling is a constant visual repeat of one lip/picture movement. Kind of dorky.
70's baby!
CONQUEST OF THE PLANET OF THE APES
23. Again, it's 1991, and the apes weren't supposed to be slaves untill another 200 years, according to Zira.
Covered above.
* Armando's initial (and seemingly "casual") summing-up of what has been going on in the prequels is outlandishly silly ("remember that you are Caesar, the son of two talking monkeys, Cornelius and Zira, who came to earth in a spaceship many years ago..." etc.).
Hollywood device - bring the new audience up to speed as quickly as possible.
24. In no more than 20 years, all apes have suddenly become semi-humans (the only explanation is when Armando says that the apes grew larger...and larger only by being in human companionship)!! Actually, it's only 8 years, since Armando goes on to say that the plague wiped out all cats and dogs 8 years ago, and that the humans sought monkeys as replacements. So the 200/500 years of Zira has dwindled to 8!
That's progress for you?
25. Why are they leaving the circus in the first place?
To advertise the show.
* The guvernor seems suspiciously suspicious when he hears about the alleged "talking ape". Over-reaction.
No, he remembers the C & Z story and what may happen with the apes taking over.
26. How do the apes in the "outskirts" hear about the rebellion, and then join in?
Not sure what you mean - this rebellion is just one city. It would be covered on news, so do other apes in other centres copy-cat? Do other govenors execute their apes? Ultimatley it doesn't matter, as the sequel focuses on this city and this group of apes...
27. Why is seemingly EVERYTHING in this world centered around the issue of apes? Isn't there anything else to worry about (and why are we not told about the surroundings and causes for the upcoming armageddon)?
...Just tell the story.
* I'd say that LA is a surprisingly SILENT city. There's not much of regular life going on here, obviously.
Who says this city is LA? It's unnamed I think... (I know it was shot in LA, but I don't think they give this city a name... it's been awhile).
28. The guvernor claims that the ape takeover of the headquarters will be the end of civilization as we know it. How can the takeover of a single office in a single city in a single country have these kind of effects on a global basis?
Hyperbole, and it is the end of his personal civilization.
* Note that the only motivation for the hideous treatment of the apes is that the "ape within us must be whipped!" or something like that.
Allegory - slavery is wrong.
29. Caesar's prophecies claim that the apes will emerge from the new postapocalyptic world as a new, independent species. How can he be so sure that he - and all the apes - will not be demolished by the bombs as well?
Hyperbole - preaching to the audience who has seen the first film.
30. Why is it that all the apes suddenly understand english during Caesar's final speech (for example, when C. tells them to put down their armour, they comply)?
They understand english - the older ones anyway - from their years of servitude. Humans are talking to apes all through the film.
BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES
(* I see that John Landis has a part in this film. Which role does he play?)
31. Again, Zira said that Aldo would be the first to say no. Clearly, no such thing happens in this film (although he reacts strongly when Abe, the teacher, says no to HIM).
Ceasar and C & Z changed the history, but we get a sense of the world Aldo would create (the world of the first film) as opposed to Caesar's vision - peace and "brotherhood."
* On the same note, no alternative for "no" is mentioned. How should the humans express a "negative imperative"?
Allegory again - and a response to their enslavement - just like African-Amercians can use a certain word beginning with 'N' while a caucasion like me shouldn't.
32. Virgil talks about the possibilities for time travel. Hasn't time travel already been established through Taylor's journey or the arrival of Cornelius or Zira? Or are these records no longer known?
They find out about them in the city...
33. How the hell are the apes (Lisa included) able to speak, develop class systems etc. within Caesar's LIFESPAN??? Pretty amazing evolution, unless something godzilla-like happened in the nuclear blast.
Lisa speaks at end of previous film - they had advanced; also a movie; also we are not told how much time has passed from CONQUEST. Also note that Teacher teaches them to speak and write, and Aldo and his gorillas don't speak as well as the other apes...
34. It is not explained properly how the humans came to be inferior to the apes after the nuclear war. Is this also the case on a global basis?
These humans left/were taken from the city by Caesar, the mutants in the city stayed. Again, this is just one city - who knows what is happening on the rest of the planet (same can be said of first film - perhaps they are the only apes that speak on the planet..).
* Pretty amazing that MacDonald, the brother of the guvernor's advisor in the prequel - survived the war and ended as Caesar's left hand.
Why, MacDonald helped Caesar and was saved, his brother must have come. Was MacDonald killed in blast like the govenor? (though the director's cut of Conquest has the govenor beaten to a literal pulp, but was thought too violent, so in the theatrical cut, the govenor survives as Caesar says, "We are not human, but we can be humane...")
35. The "ape shall not kill ape" law was intially established as a rule developed by The Lawgiver. Here it is alive and kicking more than 600 years before the lawgiver arrives...
Came from Lawgiver via C & Z, and their son keeps it going - new timeline remember.
* What year is this anyway?
Who the hell knows, and does it really matter at this point?
36. Humans and apes live in harmony on Lawgiver's time. But if this is a different "lane" of the future, would The Lawgiver exist nevertheless?
Yes, but his Laws are now different....
-------------------
I grew up with these films, and saw them years apart, so the inconsistancies tended to slip by. I also watched them all back to back a few years back and noted much of what you have (and a few others). Many questions were answered in the great documentary that came with the film series BEYOND THE PLANET OF THE APES - well worth a watch if you are a fan of the series, or just interested in film production.
If I had the money and influence, I would lauch the film series as a Maxi-TV series, where the whole saga would play out over a season; rewriting the story to make it all fall into place.
The new film does a nice job of restarting the series - maybe they will do more and bring the saga up to date, and fix all the bugs.
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The MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER theme song says it best-
"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax..."
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Thor, why the hell did you start this thread in the first place?
I imagine for the same reason his personal website has an catalouged index of all the FSM threads he's started and posted in.
In other words: Ego.
No, it's called pride. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Your seemingly pathological hatred for Thor and everything he does on the other hand...
I mean you don't like him, we get it.
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Here are two timelines:
http://www.theforbidden-zone.com/info/index.shtml
Someone named Don Lemmon wrote a complete 23p timeline a few years back that takes into account everything incl the Tim Burton movie (though, obviously not the new 'Rise...' release), and he even extrapoltaes further 'history'.
It appears to have dropped off the internet, but I can send it to anyone who writes me though my profile.
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