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Posted: |
Sep 12, 2010 - 9:10 AM
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By: |
GMP
(Member)
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The Overture wasn't really killed because of attention span. Unlike in an opera or ballet, the Overtures in cinema were meant to play in the background as patrons entered, took their seats, bought their popcorn, went to the loo, chatted, found their seats etc., etc.. Attention was always optional.
What killed it was TV. You can't show overtures on TV, so they were always cut. This changed people's expectations or at least the producers' perceptions of their expectations. And on VHS or DVD the whole idea is that you can start the film at home whenever you like. The notion of an interval before or during a film whilst the viewers 'wait' for the start is meaningless.
But the main thing was advertising. Once it was realised that you could get twice as many ads or preview trailers in, and once it was realised that less padding means more showings in a day, they disappeared.
Also, they were phased out when pop and jazz scores became more prevalent in the 1960s. An Overture in classical music form PROPER contains a selection of main leitmotives from the score. If you eschew the leitmotif structure, then what sort of 'Overture' can you have? Herrmann had few overtures, because even his later scores wouldn't allow that. It's a classical musical form, for classical pictures, or at the very least, musicals.
And remember that form dictates content. Today, an Overture suggests a massive epic undertaking underway. A simple soap opera or intimate comedy seems pretentious with an overture, no matter how literate or meaningful or clever.
Overtures ended with the demise of the Roadshow. Roadshows were meant to be presented as a Broadway show. Oklahoma was the first to revive the Roadshow in 1955 non-musical roadshow films followed the same example : Overture, intermission, exit music. Higher ticket prices, no sale of popcorn, one theater per city, advance sales, souvneir program etc.
in 1973 the Roadshow ened with "Man of La Mancha" after that a few films had overtures but without the roadshow presentation they weren't needed - most Roadshow's played in general release without their overture/exit music.
And yes, advertising was more profitable.
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Even a lot of prints shown in revival had the overtures taken out, sometimes by projectionists who couldn't figure out what "all the extra black leader" was.
The 1973 Tom Sawyer (Sherman Bros./John Williams) had an Overture. That was after Man of La Mancha, but were there any musicals after that that had one?
Mike
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Posted: |
Sep 15, 2010 - 8:44 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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The Overture wasn't really killed because of attention span. Unlike in an opera or ballet, the Overtures in cinema were meant to play in the background as patrons entered, took their seats, bought their popcorn, went to the loo, chatted, found their seats etc., etc.. Attention was always optional.
I'm not too sure about that. I think when an Overture started, patrons were pretty much expected to be in their seats. If you were paying extra to see a Roadshow picture, you wouldn't want people just getting to their seats once the picture proper has started.
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BEN-HUR never had exit music.
Overture and Entr'acte, yes, but no exit music.
In the original pressbook I have, it's explained that the filmmakers didn't want to alter the mood after the miracle at the finale of the film.
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Posted: |
Sep 17, 2010 - 3:21 PM
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By: |
jef29bow
(Member)
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It seems to be odd when some major musicals did not have Overtures.
Half a Sixpence did not have one. Neither did Hello Dolly or Sound of Music.
Many Roadshow films started with an overture. Certain musicals didn't have an overture because they opened with a prologue (short scene or song before the main credits) These include Half a Sixpence, Sound of Music, Hello Dolly and Fiddler on the Roof. Paint Your Wagon on the other hand didn't have a prologue or overture, the film just started with the main credits. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang didn't have a "musical" overture, instead it started with the sound of engines and cars racing around a track.
I've always had a question about that: I have a copy of the original Variety review of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, and it lists the film's total running time as 156 minutes, including overture and playout, excluding intermission. The version of the film that's on DVD (and I assume will be on blu-ray) runs 145 minutes, and as you stated does not start with any overture but instead has the car engine sounds. That's a ten minute difference I've never been able to explain. Does anyone out there have any answers? And another point regarding the KIng Kong overture everyone insists was not originally part of the film: if it wasn't, how come it's restoration to the film brings its total running time up to 104 minutes, as it has been erroniously reported in various publications (like Halliwell's Film Guide) for years? Is it not possible that -- like in cases such as Spellbound -- an overture was prepared for the film's premiere, and then dropped thereafter. Just another minor point I'm wondering if anyone out there has an answer for.
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Posted: |
Sep 17, 2010 - 3:24 PM
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By: |
jef29bow
(Member)
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It seems to be odd when some major musicals did not have Overtures.
Half a Sixpence did not have one. Neither did Hello Dolly or Sound of Music.
Many Roadshow films started with an overture. Certain musicals didn't have an overture because they opened with a prologue (short scene or song before the main credits) These include Half a Sixpence, Sound of Music, Hello Dolly and Fiddler on the Roof. Paint Your Wagon on the other hand didn't have a prologue or overture, the film just started with the main credits. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang didn't have a "musical" overture, instead it started with the sound of engines and cars racing around a track.
I've always had a question about that: I have a copy of the original Variety review of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, and it lists the film's total running time as 156 minutes, including overture and playout, excluding intermission. The version of the film that's on DVD (and I assume will be on blu-ray) runs 145 minutes, and as you stated does not start with any overture but instead has the car engine sounds. That's a ten minute difference I've never been able to explain. Does anyone out there have any answers? And another point regarding the KIng Kong overture everyone insists was not originally part of the film: if it wasn't, how come it's restoration to the film brings its total running time up to 104 minutes, as it has been erroniously reported in various publications (like Halliwell's Film Guide) for years? Is it not possible that -- like in cases such as Spellbound -- an overture was prepared for the film's premiere, and then dropped thereafter. Just another minor point I'm wondering if anyone out there has an answer for.
Sorry about the multiple posts -- computer glich...
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Try clicking "Edit" on each of your redundant posts, deleting all text and replacing it with "DP" to cut down on all the scrolling space the glitch-induced posts are taking up.
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I'd forgotten a few of those. But what sort of Overture did 'Battle of the Bulge' have? I have both releases on CD, OST and Bamert, and they both begin with the title.
The Overture is really good. It relies far less on the main thematic elements from the film than does the Main Title or the Entr’acte or the Exit Music (which is almost a copy of the Main Title). The Overture begins as a string ostinato, imparting an air of anticipation and suspense, which gradually increases in intensity as the complete orchestra takes up the original string figure. The music becomes agitated as the percussion and brass become prominent and take up some of the battle music for the bulk of the 2.30 minutes. It ends on a partially unresolved crescendo. The complete roadshow version is available on the latest DVD and Blu-ray disc. The full length score would be a great release for FSM but the film was a co-production between Warner Bros and Cinerama Inc so I suppose that makes music clearance difficult.
Doug, according to 'Illustrator' on another thread, the Overture was actually a cue called 'The Armaments Train', added as an afterthought, and it's on the Bamert CD.
http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=74896&forumID=1&archive=0&pageID=1&r=606#bottom
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Posted: |
Dec 31, 2010 - 11:53 AM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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.....I don't believe that anyone has mentioned DUEL IN THE SUN. The DVD has not only an Overture but a 9 minute PRELUDE played before the OVERTURE as well as EXIT Music. The use of the PRELUDE might have been for the Premiere as I can't see anyone sitting in their seats for 9 minutes listening to Tiomkin's music for 9 minutes and then have a 2 minute OVERTURE on top of that. Anyone know the story behind this...?.....
I don't remember which is which at this moment, the PRELUDE or the OVERTURE, but the one which has the narrator was created to deflect the serious condemnation issues the Catholic Church and other religious organizations had with DUEL IN THE SUN at the time of its original release.
The Catholic "Legion of Decency" rating of "Condemned" in those days was a serious problem for producers when it was applied to a film and could inflict damage on the boxoffice in a major way.
After previews, producer David O. Selznick made cuts in the film to counteract this threat, particularly, I think, in the swimming scenes at the sump, the Peck-Jones rape scene and, I believe, in the depiction of Pearl's mother at the beginning of the film. This seemed to help some of the complaints but there were still other issues, and Selznick's after-the-fact device of the narrator intoning about the representation of Walter Huston as the itinerant preacher, as well as the moral standing of others of the characters, was utilized to deflect other religious concerns.
In the end, DUEL IN THE SUN was one of the most successful boxoffice films of the 1940s---a huge hit---so all of this moralistic fervor only served to enhance the boxoffice rather than stunt it.
I feel certain the two pieces were never used simultaneously in screenings, and I suspect the music only overture was used in the first engagements or ones which didn't expect censorship complaints, and the other with the narrator in the communities whose religious fervor was in a frenzy over the release of the film.
Seen today, DUEL IN THE SUN remains a beautifully-shot, art-directed, and superbly masterful technical production, but otherwise is a pretty silly, over-the-top and operatic kind of western, albeit one that is a delight to watch if you don't take it too seriously. Judged by the way we live our lives today, it's hard to believe what all the fuss was about 60+ years ago, but times change.
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Posted: |
Dec 31, 2010 - 1:06 PM
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By: |
Bob DiMucci
(Member)
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I don't remember which is which at this moment, the PRELUDE or the OVERTURE, but the one which has the narrator was created to deflect the serious condemnation issues the Catholic Church and other religious organizations had with DUEL IN THE SUN at the time of its original release.
The Catholic "Legion of Decency" rating of "Condemned" in those days was a serious problem for producers when it was applied to a film and could inflict damage on the boxoffice in a major way.
The AFI Catalog summarizes the controversy thusly:
"Information in the MPAA/PCA files reveals that Selznick worked closely with the MPAA to ensure that the film would meet Production Code requirements. Despite the MPAA's approval of the finished picture, the National Legion of Decency condemned the film. They protested that even though the characters of Lewt and Pearl die, there is no sense that what they did was wrong. After Selznick recut the film a month later, the Legion gave it a "B" (objectional in parts for all) rating. In May 1947, a second re-edited version was released with an added prologue and epilogue. The prologue emphasized that the "Sinkiller" was not an ordained minister, in response to protests from Protestant churchmen, who felt the character made ministers appear ludicrous. The epilogue summarized the awards that the film had won and informed audiences that the main characters died because they violated the laws of God. According to a 10 Jun 1947 article in Look , a sexy dance in the "sump" scene was cut, and the scene in which Lewt forces himself on Pearl was shortened to eliminate any indication that a rape had occurred.
"On 19 Jun 1947, Mississippi Representative John E. Rankin introduced House Resolution 250, which called for the House to demand that the District of Columbia police close a theater which was showing the film because it was "filthy, debasing, and insulting to the moral instincts of decent humanity." New York Representative Emanuel Celler objected that passing the resolution would make Rankin, who had not seen the picture, the "keeper of the nation's morals" and added that the film was no longer playing in the District of Columbia. The House Resolution never emerged from the District of Columbia Committee, where it was sent for study. Eventually, the film was passed by censor boards throughout the country, with the exception of Memphis, TN, where it was not shown until 1959."
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