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 Posted:   Jan 3, 2013 - 11:33 PM   
 By:   Sigerson Holmes   (Member)



Too many notes.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 1:56 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

It's not prejudice. I've heard what Jay Z is capable of. He's a pop artist, not remotely up to scoring a motion picture. Did I ever say I'd trust McCartney to score a film? No. Why? Because I wouldn't trust him to either. Scoring requires depth. Range. Nuance. Things these guys don't have enough of. It's not prejudice and it's not anti-non-composer. It's my opinion, but it has reasoning behind it. I enjoy some of McCartney's work (though not remotely all of it) and can't stand Jay Z's output. Crucify away. It doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

Quite the contrary, what you're doing is the very defintion of prejudice: You're judging a work prior to even having heard and seen it. It's really irrelevant what he has done before. It may or may not influence the final product, for better or worse depending on the film's style. Only time will tell.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 3:54 AM   
 By:   Peter Greenhill   (Member)

It's not prejudice. I've heard what Jay Z is capable of. He's a pop artist, not remotely up to scoring a motion picture. Did I ever say I'd trust McCartney to score a film? No. Why? Because I wouldn't trust him to either. Scoring requires depth. Range. Nuance. Things these guys don't have enough of. It's not prejudice and it's not anti-non-composer. It's my opinion, but it has reasoning behind it. I enjoy some of McCartney's work (though not remotely all of it) and can't stand Jay Z's output. Crucify away. It doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

Quite the contrary, what you're doing is the very defintion of prejudice: You're judging a work prior to even having heard and seen it. It's really irrelevant what he has done before. It may or may not influence the final product, for better or worse depending on the film's style. Only time will tell.


---------------
Nicko-Ho is speculating on what might be, based on what he knows of Jay Z's output so far. That isn't prejudice. It's making a reasoned judgement based on what is known so far.

Speculation is a valid part of a discussion group, like this. We'll know, in time, if the speculation is correct.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 5:19 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I think Nick and others are doing far more than speculating here (which -- while we're on the topic -- I never understood the point of in the first place). They are applying VALUE judgements to a work that hasn't even been composed.

If such hatred had been applied to other non-traditional assignments over the years, we would never have seen the likes of Stewart Copeland, Danny Elfman, Johnny Greenwood, RZA, Trent Reznor, Clint Mansell, Cliff Martinez, Ry Cooder, Mark Knopfler, Toto and many others who have proven their worth far beyond the pop/rock music they were associated with before their first film assignment.

All I ask for -- and it shouldn't really be that much of a difficulty -- is to have an open mind, regardless of what you think of the artist's previous work in other genres. But around here (by far one of the most reactionary communities I've ever visited), I know that's asking much.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 5:22 AM   
 By:   lexedo   (Member)

Woof. So, in all of this, no Nelson Riddle release -- is that what I am to take away?

McCartney sucks. Jay-Z -- the same league.

Hip-hop and jazz are cousins -- sure, if you think Ken Burns knows anything.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 5:23 AM   
 By:   lexedo   (Member)

I think Nick and others are doing far more than speculating here (which -- while we're on the topic -- I never understood the point of in the first place). They are applying VALUE judgements to a work that hasn't even been composed.

If such hatred had been applied to other non-traditional assignments over the years, we would never have seen the likes of Stewart Copeland, Danny Elfman, Johnny Greenwood, RZA, Trent Reznor, Clint Mansell, Cliff Martinez, Ry Cooder, Mark Knopfler, Toto and many others who have proven their worth far beyond the pop/rock music they were associated with before their first film assignment.

All I ask for -- and it shouldn't really be that much of a difficulty -- is to have an open mind, regardless of what you think of the artist's previous work in other genres. But around here (by far one of the most reactionary communities I've ever visited), I know that's asking much.


The Toto reference is silly on the surface. Their father was a famous studio drummer on hundreds of STs, and all the Porcaro brothers were educated at the university level in music.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 5:46 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

The point is that great film music can come from ANY background. There is no set way that says you have to be a classically trained, orchestral composer to be successful as a film composer. It will always depend on the style of the film, and what the musician can bring to the table to support that style. If Jay-Z is being brought in to do this, I'm sure Luhrman has a reason for doing so. We'll see when the film arrives (to be honest, I had no intention of seeing this film before I read this thread....now after all this, I very well might).

I'm not a particular fan of Jay-Z. In fact, my only exposure is probably just radio airplay as I pass by, but I'm willing to give him a chance. One of my favourite things in the world is to hear unusual casting choices try their hands on the medium -- whether it turns out successfu or not.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 8:55 AM   
 By:   Penelope Pineapple   (Member)

I have no love for Jay-Z. It's not my thing. But do we really know for sure that "pop artist" is the be-all and end-all of his aspiration? We are so quick to define people -- this artist does this, that one does that. Jay-Z is incredibly successful, and for that I cannot fault him. But he may have more in him. I bristle when people here insist that they know that he does not have depth or range simply because he has not yet displayed such depth or range.

As a person employed in the entertainment business for the last two decades, I have consistently had to fight just such narrow thinking, where the people who would hire me define me narrowly only by what I have already done (sometimes they consider that a strength, sometimes a weakness). I want to do new things. I know I have them in me. I am looking to prove myself in ways I have not yet.


You can't see me but I'm standing up and applauding your post, sir! big grin Excellent!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 10:36 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I'll applaud that post too! Glad to see that reason still exists.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 2:23 PM   
 By:   vwing   (Member)

I'm sorry, I know this has turned into a philosophical debate on the nature of film scoring and film composers, but just focusing on the FACTS, everyone realizes that Armstrong is still attached to the picture, right? And because of his long-standing history with Baz, and because the studio still lists him as a composer, and because there's been no comment from him or Baz about it, one assumes that his score has not been rejected? And that, because of Baz's propensity to use incredibly disparate music within a single film, sometimes within a single scene, it's much, MUCH more likely that Armstrong's score will be used alongside whatever Jay-Z and Seal's brother write. And for all we know, they're being asked to score 10 minutes of the movie that Baz wants a very specific sound for, and there'll still be 90 minutes of score.

Ok, on with the philosophizing.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 4:43 PM   
 By:   lexedo   (Member)

The point is that great film music can come from ANY background.

Actually, a quick scan of the AFI top-100 shows the exact opposite to be true: the greatest film scores have always been written by very knowledgable & accomplished musicians and composers.

Anyway, I'm just needling you dude. Your points are valid to an extent.

BTW, copeland is a great drummer, and knopfler & cooder are respectable guitarists.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 4:57 PM   
 By:   dan the man   (Member)

It seems to me what THOR might be saying is, let us all salute the ROGER CORMAN'S of the world, if you fail me your gone, matter of fact you were gone pretty soon even if you succeeded with old ROGER BABY, But Roger believe in giving nearly anyone a chance, with that of course you could say, it was either good logic or bad logic, alot of junk came from Roger Corman films.But if you were a betting man i would not put my money down JAY Z will become a John Barry.But as they said in the New York lottery, YOU NEVER KNOW, DOES ONE.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 5:04 PM   
 By:   lexedo   (Member)

Thor is a very clever fellow w well-thought positions, and a great understanding of historical context; he knows I am just playing advocate so as to assist in the fortification of his own arguments and views.

Pop into the Golden Age NYC thread, and provide some thoughts on Eivind Buene, NordicMan...

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 5:33 PM   
 By:   Melvin Stephens   (Member)

Really do not want to post this. Have stayed away from this site for sometime do to the closed minded views being expressed. Responding in the past to such views, I've found myself being made the issue for pointing out such blatant elitism... but here goes...

My wife is sitting here and can verify this as fact. Saw the post and said: ‘watch, when you read it, Jay Z is going to be vilified... reading she turned to me responding to Dan the Man's post: ‘This person is correct...no one has heard his music yet.' Sweetheart, that is not the issue. The issue is prejudice. Jay Z is a rap person. How dare he think, assume he can write a musical score...

Are you upset because you feel JAY Z is not a good composer? i have not heard enough of his music to voice an opinion.

The litany of apoplectic reactions that spring up like clockwork when a non-film score composer gets work as a film score composer makes for amusing, if somewhat tedious, reading. "Oh, the humanity!" roll eyes Boo-hoo. So Williams, Horner, Elfman, Greenwood, McCreary, Wintoury, Reznor, some unknown composer, or [insert your favorite composer here] didn't get the gig.

One should also be aware that just because Jay Z has a background as a hip hop artist, doesn't mean the score is going to sound like any given chart hit. Just listen to the stuff RZA has done, especially the superb GHOST DOG: WAY OF THE SAMURAI.

Let's just wait untill we announce the film music apocalypse, shall we?

Dan the Man, Penelope, Thor...thanks for proving there are still a few human beings left among us, not willing to send those not supposedly known for musical scores off to the gas chambers... quick, get the torches, gather the mob, I'm for storming the countryside finding this non composer and burning him out. Forget the Frankenstein castle chaps, on to Jay Z's crib...

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 6:49 PM   
 By:   drivingmissdaisy   (Member)

A way to post that won't get others pissy or get the thread locked and that's this....

Post your opinion knowing you will NOT change someone's views who may be different from yours. That's a good way to post and move on. Many have a different of opinion which us great. The object is to not get upset when someone disagrees with yours and keeps disagreeing with you.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 7:08 PM   
 By:   Krakatoa   (Member)

Message

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 11:29 PM   
 By:   CindyLover   (Member)

I'll just say this: however these things turn out I don't see much "All right, I admit it, I was wrong" around here. On either side.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 11:44 PM   
 By:   Dana Wilcox   (Member)

Sure hope someone will release on CD the Oscar winning great Nelson Riddle adaptation cues and songs from the 1974 "Great Gatsby". Sounds like this go round won't be much on period pieces?

Riddle's underscore, while brief, is pretty good too. I have a transfer of the 2LP score/adaptations/songs but would gladly order a remastered CD set from original tapes.

Will I ever buy the Jay Z "score" for the upcoming Gatsby clusterf**k? Not on your life, bubby.

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 11:50 PM   
 By:   Krakatoa   (Member)

Message

 
 Posted:   Jan 4, 2013 - 11:50 PM   
 By:   Krakatoa   (Member)

Message

 
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