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I am very happy with my Varese Sarabande edition of Spartacus. F...k the MCA edition! Thanks to Robert Townson and all Varese people for doing this possible.
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2011 - 5:07 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Thor, either you're out to purposely insult, or you're oblivious to how insulting this statement is. And I don't think you're that oblivious. In case you didn't notice, it was Onyabirri who wrote he recently found the MCA version and was happy with it. I just agreed with him. Nothing wrong with that. One great side-effect of this massive Varese release is that the ol' MCA is now cheap enough for those of us who only crave that type of arrangement. Maybe it was the 'obsession' word you reacted to. Well, maybe it's not the right word, but - like Goldsmith around here - this is without competition the most talked-about, hyped, almost unanimously loved soundtrack by 95% of the membership here. Not only loved. Loved so much that anyone who do NOT share that passion to the same degree are automatically jumped upon. It's crazy. So I thought 'obsession' was the right word, that kind of blind passion that sees any disagreements as attacks on their very person (not necessarily referring to you in particular, but the general sentiment). But I'm all open for other, more apt descriptions. Overly defensive, perhaps.
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Some of us want the full score, others are happy with the MCA. Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. Just enjoy the music.
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Some of us need the full score, others are happy with the MCA. Actually none of us NEED the music at all. Let's not forget this is a luxury. Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. Not quite. When someone says that it's 'adequate' to this score to release it as the MCA compilation, they enter the 'wrong' category, because they're now speaking beyond the subjective. It's a fact that the MCA selection is UNREPRESENTATIVE and arbitrary. The leitmotif structure isn't even represented, never mind thoughtfully compiled. It's a 'classic' film with a 'classic' score, and there's a responsibility. This is NOT an argument about 'complete versus edited', EXCEPT .... if you're stirring it OR you simply don't understand what the music is about. It's an argument about 'BAD edit versus GOOD edit'. When an album is selected from a score, some effort is made to create a representative selection of all the major themes and overall feel. To randomly pick out anything that (a) has no overlays, and therefore is easier (lazy) and (b) has an upbeat feel for a pop audience and (c) was cheaper then, using the smaller orchestral groupings, and less repeat fees, is to be EXPEDIENTIAL. That album had NOTHING to do with a good presentation, and even the order made no dramatic sense. For someone to pretend (yes, I think I said 'pretend') to like this album JUST to make a point that he dislikes complete renderings, is absurd in this case. Imagine releasing a new album of 'The Sound of Music' with, say, just three songs, 'A Problem Like Maria', 'Sixteen, Going On Seventeen', and 'The Lonely Goatherd'. Would it be 'right' to say that this is a great listen and 'adequate'? No. If one is a musically challenged Martian pretending to like Earthlings' music though, it might seem a good bluff .... as part of a strategy to take over the Earth of course. One more thing. The 'agenda' I refer to has nothing to do with this argument. It has to do with something else entirely. The cheek that you can tell someone's age from their preferences. There's no requirement to pretend crap is not crap.
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If one is a musically challenged Martian pretending to like Earthlings' music though, it might seem a good bluff .... as part of a strategy to take over the Earth of course. Ha! That reminds me of the time I compared Thor to a machine: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=60348&forumID=1&archive=0 "The Hungry Sea" is my favorite LIS score. I'm a little stunned to see it called less interesting, but you're being technical. Rather than dissecting it, picking away with metal tongs like an android over an ALIENS face hugger, you might try feeling the emotions being expressed. It's not the parts, it's the whole. I was contributing to the civil discourse, you know. Good old Thor. BTW, William, that was a very illuminating post about what is lacking on the MCA edition.
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2011 - 3:19 AM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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Thor, either you're out to purposely insult, or you're oblivious to how insulting this statement is. And I don't think you're that oblivious. In case you didn't notice, it was Onyabirri who wrote he recently found the MCA version and was happy with it. I just agreed with him. Nothing wrong with that. One great side-effect of this massive Varese release is that the ol' MCA is now cheap enough for those of us who only crave that type of arrangement. Maybe it was the 'obsession' word you reacted to. Well, maybe it's not the right word, but - like Goldsmith around here - this is without competition the most talked-about, hyped, almost unanimously loved soundtrack by 95% of the membership here. Not only loved. Loved so much that anyone who do NOT share that passion to the same degree are automatically jumped upon. It's crazy. So I thought 'obsession' was the right word, that kind of blind passion that sees any disagreements as attacks on their very person (not necessarily referring to you in particular, but the general sentiment). But I'm all open for other, more apt descriptions. Overly defensive, perhaps. There's a couple of points here. It must have occurred to you that if what you're saying is correct about how loved this score is, there may be a good reason and you're missing something. Secondly, I don't know if you've seen the film, but even if you haven't it will have surely occurred to you that a 3 hour epic would have a lot more than 40 minutes of music and that the 40 minutes of the MCA album are quite repetitious; thus quite a lot of important material must be missing. And of course, to make the decision that the MCA album is suifficient you should have some idea of what's missing; if not how can you know what YOU'RE missing? If you think from the MCA album that the music is too loud or harsh, how do you know that the rest of the music is not soft and romantic and more to your taste? In other words, interpolating from what you simply don't know is more than a bit silly and not worthy of an intelligent man like yourself. There's a third point. I just can't believe you're not just deliberately stirring the pot here. You must be. You well know that the reason Spartacus has been the most discussed score is because it's been so poorly represented for so long. Nothing arouses desire like something withheld for 50 years. I can certainly appreciated that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but you seem to be the one with the constant need to post to Spartacus threads poo-pooing everyone's desire for the complete score WITHOUT knowing the complete score, and thus without know what it is everyone wants. I'm with the guy above who generally dislikes complete scores with a few notable exceptions, of which this is one. Why don't you join our party and modify your "no complete scores" policy to include just the very best. It would be so much more sensible than deliberately stirring every time this subject comes up, and much more enriching culturally for you, I believe. It just requires a little less rigidity and a desire to break the stirring habit. (Incidentally, there may be skin patches for that. ).
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2011 - 5:12 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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There's a couple of points here. It must have occurred to you that if what you're saying is correct about how loved this score is, there may be a good reason and you're missing something. Secondly, I don't know if you've seen the film, but even if you haven't it will have surely occurred to you that a 3 hour epic would have a lot more than 40 minutes of music and that the 40 minutes of the MCA album are quite repetitious; Actually, pp, I OWN the film and have seen it many times. I think the score works well in the movie, but as you know, I don't really care what I'm "missing" when I listen to a soundtrack. What matters is how the soundtrack holds up as a separate entity that has nothing whatsoever to do with the movie. In the case of SPARTACUS, the music is so intense and dense and challenging that it can't hold up much interest beyond 40 minutes (roughly the length of an average symphony), IMO. I think the MCA album manages to balance this challenging, aggressive music with the more soft-spoken textures (like the famous love theme). I tried to listen to an extended fan mix once, roughly 65 minutes, but it was a bit too much. As it happens, there are several like me, and we now get the benefit of purchasing the SPARTACUS experience the way we prefer it for a relatively cheap price. That's the side-effect of this Varese release, which pleases most of you. So with those two choices available, I see it as a positive thing. We all get what we want, everyone is happy. I think saying how happy you are for finding a cheap copy of the MCA CD in this thread is just as legitimate as saying how much you love the Varese giganto-set. It seems to me that you have to be overly defensive about something (or 'obsessive', as I dared to call it) if you construe that as something negative....
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2011 - 7:55 AM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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There's a couple of points here. It must have occurred to you that if what you're saying is correct about how loved this score is, there may be a good reason and you're missing something. Secondly, I don't know if you've seen the film, but even if you haven't it will have surely occurred to you that a 3 hour epic would have a lot more than 40 minutes of music and that the 40 minutes of the MCA album are quite repetitious; Actually, pp, I OWN the film and have seen it many times. I think the score works well in the movie, but as you know, I don't really care what I'm "missing" when I listen to a soundtrack. What matters is how the soundtrack holds up as a separate entity that has nothing whatsoever to do with the movie. In the case of SPARTACUS, the music is so intense and dense and challenging that it can't hold up much interest beyond 40 minutes (roughly the length of an average symphony), IMO. I think the MCA album manages to balance this challenging, aggressive music with the more soft-spoken textures (like the famous love theme). I tried to listen to an extended fan mix once, roughly 65 minutes, but it was a bit too much. As it happens, there are several like me, and we now get the benefit of purchasing the SPARTACUS experience the way we prefer it for a relatively cheap price. That's the side-effect of this Varese release, which pleases most of you. So with those two choices available, I see it as a positive thing. We all get what we want, everyone is happy. I think saying how happy you are for finding a cheap copy of the MCA CD in this thread is just as legitimate as saying how much you love the Varese giganto-set. It seems to me that you have to be overly defensive about something (or 'obsessive', as I dared to call it) if you construe that as something negative.... There's a lot could be said here, but probably not much point saying it from entrenched positions. One thing I am dying to ask though, since you seem so satisfied with an edition universally berated for NOT being very representative of the full score (and it isn't, whatever you may argue): are you not bothered by the many themes and motives not even hinted at in the MCA album? For instance, one of the great moments of the score is the scene where the gladiators file into their boxes pre "fight to the death". North provides the scene with an absolutely heartbreakingly lugubrious piece that I would not ever want to be without; it never fails to move me deeply. Likewise his use of the "Blue Shadows & Purple Hills" theme in its "slave" guise for the opening scene (it's only ever heard in "romantic" mode on the album): a powerful piece that in a way defines North's whole style. I just cannot imagine anyone being satisfied with a recording that entirely ignores these piece and indeed two thirds of a score that just brims brilliance out of every crevice. Remember, I agree with you about the need for full scores for most films; there are indeed few that deserve more than a 15 minute suite. But then there are these absolute masterpieces, and to me it weakens your position, and thus mine, to remain so obstinate in being satisfied with so little. To me the whole "no full scores" position would be greatly strengthened by flexibility, by making exceptions for those scores that clearly deserve it. Remember, though some symphonies are only 40 minutes, some are twice that length and none the worse for it.
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2011 - 8:06 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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There's a lot could be said here, but probably not much point saying it from entrenched positions. One thing I am dying to ask though, since you seem so satisfied with an edition universally berated for NOT being very representative of the full score (and it isn't, whatever you may argue): are you not bothered by the many themes and motives not even hinted at in the MCA album? Not really, no. As I said earlier, there could be an unreleased Beethoven symphony in the film for all I care. What matters is only - and only - how the existing soundtrack album holds up from start to finish, as a singular concept album. The film, and all the music within, is practically non-existant in my mind when I listen to a soundtrack. No matter how great the missing music may be. I should note that I wouldn't necessarily oppose an expansion if the music called for it. For example, I thought the expansion of STAR WARS from the LP albums to the Arista box was warranted (although the subsequent RCA expansions was too much), mostly because of the NATURE of the music. The scope and listenability of the themes etc. warranted it. In the case of SPARTACUS, however, much of the missing music (from what I can recall of it) is really more of the same TYPE of music that is already represented on the MCA - either shrill, brassy, often dissonant affairs that can easily grate after a while or more variations of the love theme. It's a type of music that I - personally - can't take more than 40 minutes of, and even for that I have to be in the mood. These things are subjective.
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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2011 - 9:46 PM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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To be clear, my impetus for posting was not the fact that short Decca album is inherently better than the full score; it was the fact that I can either buy the short version for $3, or I have to get a six-disc set for over $100. It seems there should have been an option for a two-CD set. Since there is not, I'm opting for the shorter version. I do not love this music that much to shell out $$$ for a box set. Well, this whole thread is mostly taken up with a debate about whether there should have been a $40 2-CD set, and I would certainly endorse that. Maybe it's still coming--who knows? As for opting for the shorter version, that would be a legitimate choice were this soundtrack like most: 40-50 minutes of pretty fair music with a couple of really great highlights but a lot of padding, and with luck maybe three themes involved. But this is a huge work of over two hours, on which one of the great film composers of the 20th century laboured for a full year. It's packed with themes interwoven into a fine musical skein in much the same way as Rozsa's Ben-Hur, but hugely differs in being fused with both jazz and atonal elements--utterly unique, in fact. Considered in its entirety, as we're now able to do at leisure, it's nothing less than mind-boggling in its versatility, complexity and depth, one-of-a-kind not just in film music but in 20th Century composition. Having said all that, would you believe I haven't bought this set, and won't be buying it? Like you I consider it economic overkill, plus it's in mono. However, that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with the MCA version; I wasn't even satisfied with that in 1960. As I've detailed above, it simply doesn't represent this score; half the themes and most of the best bits are missing, to put it succinctly. So I'm a bit like the Jews at the moment: I believe my Messiah is still to come. Somewhere, somehow, a stereo print of this score just has to appear, even if it takes a shepherd boy throwing stones into a cave and hearing pottery breaking. It has to happen because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. If all else fails, I'm going to ask Santa. He knows where to find things.
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