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In a way, it's good to see the labels having such a passionate "discussion" -- obviously they are passionate about preserving and presenting these scores in the way they see best. I'm excited to see someone is having another crack at Poltergeist 2 as this is an underappreciated score that needs rediscovery, and the most available version (Varese) has that shrill, overcooked sound. Kritzerland has a good track record, and I trust their judgment. I'm sure if the elements they used were genuinely unsuitable for CD master, they wouldn't have used them. To second guess them at this point seems a little ridiculous. For me, $19.99 for a 2 CD set of is a no-brainer. I just hope I can snag a copy before they disappear.
The elements were in perfect condition, I'm happy to say. I really have no idea how quickly or not quickly this will move - it really kind of depends on the dealer orders.
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And I think I forgot to mention that it's a two CD set. We made that decision because I'd originally planned six bonus tracks but that was too long for one CD. I cut three of them but the CD was still coming in at just under eighty minutes and that I didn't want - too dangerous. So, I made the decision to go to two CDs and put on a couple more bonus tracks to boot. And all for 19.98.
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Shouldn't we have heard from Ford Thaxton by now, screaming FANBOYS!!! and blue murder at Bruce Kimmel for extolling virtues over and above a 'when he was alive, composer approved release'?
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For the record, I only have the Intrada expansion and it always sounded good to me.
I'm not a huge fan of the score - although I do love the Late Call theme - so the Intrada will suffice.
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If the disc is being bumped up to 2 discs, it would be nice to include the entire original LP arrangement on the 2nd disc.
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Posted: |
Aug 23, 2013 - 9:30 AM
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By: |
Ron Pulliam
(Member)
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For those who've had enough of the label owners' exchanges, move along. These aren't the posts you want.
For the rest of us, let's have the final bits (to date) of discussion on this issue from Mssrs. Fake and Kimmel from the thread at Intrada's forum:
Douglass Fake wrote:
Sorry, Bruce, but I have heard the 1/2" masters and had a two-track mix made from them by Bruce Botnick way back in 1986. I was also present at Capitol when Bruce and Jerry were creating our album master and had ample opportunity to talk about the recording and whether we wanted to create totally different masters for each of the LP, cassette and then-new CD formats. We left that decision up to them because they were the artists who knew what they wanted, we were just happy to be involved. FACT: Botnick made the three-channel mixes for the FILM, with little input from Goldsmith, and they were never intended for subsequent stereo albums. Whatever you choose to do with the 1/2" analog film masters is your privilege. It is not the choice Goldsmith or Botnick made, however.
You've been tossing shots across my bow now for some time: whining about our release date on Bound For Glory, our release of Up being the same as the download, even the vernacular of my own personal capsules on our website for goodness sakes! Recently you jumped on my comments regarding audio processing viewpoints especially with regards to On The Waterfront.
And Dressed To Kill? You brought that one up in your comments about reverb some time ago, even though you failed to take into consideration that the reverb you so cherished was NOT in fact Donaggio's engineering decision but one made by the mixer in the small A&R Recording Studios in New York where the unusually located recording sessions took place. That is, in fact, why the low brass disappeared in the final two-track mix much to Donaggio's disappointment, and a major reason we opted to locate and remix from the 2" 24-track masters. It was our creative decision and I will stand by it. You toss your opinions around like they were facts. But we have been working with these people for many years. In fact, did you speak to Pino regarding his "sound"? We did. And if you want to to hear his sound, try Mysteries Of The Black Jungle, The Barbarians (where we first spoke to him about that very topic), Don't Look Now, Der Mann Nebenen, and on and on. I can provide you with his contact info if you don't have it. Or you can agree with me that our differing opinions on his "sound" and noise reduction and reverb and everything else creative should simply remain differences in opinion. No more, no less.
The road you speak of is one you have been trying to goad me down for years. I personally just grew weary of it and fired back. Feel free to voice your opinions and criticize my efforts here to preserve and present to the public all this wonderful music. But if you just want to lob missiles at what we are doing here, I will take up the gauntlet... starting with Poltergeist II. I stand by the facts as I presented them.
--Doug
Bruce Kimmel replied:
Well, Doug, the one thing we all learn, we who have labels, is that you ARE the Grand Poobah and are never wrong. Only you ARE completely wrong about the half-inch mixes I'm sorry to tell you. Every instrument is in EXACTLY the same place as on the two-track digital mixes, of course it's a true stereo mix, the synths are in EXACTLY the same places as the previous digital releases - the big difference, Mr. Poobah, is that the half-inches have beautiful dynamics, warmth and wonderful clarity, thanks to the beauty of analogue tape. The proof will be in the listening. I've been listening and comparing for days and there is no question what MY preference is, because it sounds wonderful to my ears. But just to hammer it home for you - and I'm sure you'll come back and want the last word - the orchestra placement and synth placement on the half-inch mixes is exactly the same as the digital mixes. James and I have listened and that's the way it is, much as it may not please you. And they are, I hate to tell you, Jerry's mixes.
I didn't begin this, Poobah, you did. It was unnecessary and I really have to call into question your assertion that you heard the half-inches, given that the information you posited about them and the orchestra in your initial post is completely incorrect. So, either you never heard them or your memory is failing or I have a different set of half-inches.
As to Pino, I'm glad you like what you did with the CD. You can dish out this stuff (about us, about other labels' work) but you don't like it when it comes back to you. In case you haven't noticed, I did several Pino scores, all of which he was thrilled with and all of which have the classic Pino sound - WET. When we got the original Italian mixes for Ordeal by Innocence and The Berlin Affair they were WET - and they were prepared by - wait for it - Pino Donaggio. But yes, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. And just to correct you, I don't THINK I ever "whined" about Up being the same or not the same as some download because I don't even know what the HELL the download is. I have the original Pixar promo CD and I'm quite certain I made no comment on it or your release - if I'm wrong, apologies all around. Furthermore, as you well know, I have been a very vocal supporter of Intrada for many years. I have on only a handful of occasions made posts you don't like - that's hardly goading and if you came into this thread to sully our upcoming release simply for spite, you have failed on all counts. Sorry.
The folks who buy the new version of Poltergeist II, a score I love, I think will find it to be an improvement, sound-wise, and certainly the extra material is all wonderful and all worth having. I think we can leave it at that, don't you?
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Ron, why do you bring this stuff over here? You are just adding to the fire.
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Posted: |
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:02 AM
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By: |
Altamese
(Member)
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I'm actually kind of confused by the below quotes.
These were posted on Intrada's message boards, weren't they?
Folks really should go over there and see exactly what Bruce has posted and Fake's responses. Talk about smarmy...and I'm not talking about Fake!
If someone had gone to Bruce's messages boards and posted such stuff, he'd delete it immediately.
Kind of hard to have respect for someone when they call you a "grand Poohbah (pot, kettle, black) and make veiled threats. And I'm sure Bruce thinks he was all calm and reasoned and not provocative at all, and doesn't think *he's* the one at fault at all.
Someone supplied a link to this thread on the Intrada boards - just read Bruce's comments in their entirety, not just what was brought over here.
For those who've had enough of the label owners' exchanges, move along. These aren't the posts you want.
For the rest of us, let's have the final bits (to date) of discussion on this issue from Mssrs. Fake and Kimmel from the thread at Intrada's forum:
Douglass Fake wrote:
Sorry, Bruce, but I have heard the 1/2" masters and had a two-track mix made from them by Bruce Botnick way back in 1986. I was also present at Capitol when Bruce and Jerry were creating our album master and had ample opportunity to talk about the recording and whether we wanted to create totally different masters for each of the LP, cassette and then-new CD formats. We left that decision up to them because they were the artists who knew what they wanted, we were just happy to be involved. FACT: Botnick made the three-channel mixes for the FILM, with little input from Goldsmith, and they were never intended for subsequent stereo albums. Whatever you choose to do with the 1/2" analog film masters is your privilege. It is not the choice Goldsmith or Botnick made, however.
You've been tossing shots across my bow now for some time: whining about our release date on Bound For Glory, our release of Up being the same as the download, even the vernacular of my own personal capsules on our website for goodness sakes! Recently you jumped on my comments regarding audio processing viewpoints especially with regards to On The Waterfront.
And Dressed To Kill? You brought that one up in your comments about reverb some time ago, even though you failed to take into consideration that the reverb you so cherished was NOT in fact Donaggio's engineering decision but one made by the mixer in the small A&R Recording Studios in New York where the unusually located recording sessions took place. That is, in fact, why the low brass disappeared in the final two-track mix much to Donaggio's disappointment, and a major reason we opted to locate and remix from the 2" 24-track masters. It was our creative decision and I will stand by it. You toss your opinions around like they were facts. But we have been working with these people for many years. In fact, did you speak to Pino regarding his "sound"? We did. And if you want to to hear his sound, try Mysteries Of The Black Jungle, The Barbarians (where we first spoke to him about that very topic), Don't Look Now, Der Mann Nebenen, and on and on. I can provide you with his contact info if you don't have it. Or you can agree with me that our differing opinions on his "sound" and noise reduction and reverb and everything else creative should simply remain differences in opinion. No more, no less.
The road you speak of is one you have been trying to goad me down for years. I personally just grew weary of it and fired back. Feel free to voice your opinions and criticize my efforts here to preserve and present to the public all this wonderful music. But if you just want to lob missiles at what we are doing here, I will take up the gauntlet... starting with Poltergeist II. I stand by the facts as I presented them.
--Doug
Bruce Kimmel replied:
Well, Doug, the one thing we all learn, we who have labels, is that you ARE the Grand Poobah and are never wrong. Only you ARE completely wrong about the half-inch mixes I'm sorry to tell you. Every instrument is in EXACTLY the same place as on the two-track digital mixes, of course it's a true stereo mix, the synths are in EXACTLY the same places as the previous digital releases - the big difference, Mr. Poobah, is that the half-inches have beautiful dynamics, warmth and wonderful clarity, thanks to the beauty of analogue tape. The proof will be in the listening. I've been listening and comparing for days and there is no question what MY preference is, because it sounds wonderful to my ears. But just to hammer it home for you - and I'm sure you'll come back and want the last word - the orchestra placement and synth placement on the half-inch mixes is exactly the same as the digital mixes. James and I have listened and that's the way it is, much as it may not please you. And they are, I hate to tell you, Jerry's mixes.
I didn't begin this, Poobah, you did. It was unnecessary and I really have to call into question your assertion that you heard the half-inches, given that the information you posited about them and the orchestra in your initial post is completely incorrect. So, either you never heard them or your memory is failing or I have a different set of half-inches.
As to Pino, I'm glad you like what you did with the CD. You can dish out this stuff (about us, about other labels' work) but you don't like it when it comes back to you. In case you haven't noticed, I did several Pino scores, all of which he was thrilled with and all of which have the classic Pino sound - WET. When we got the original Italian mixes for Ordeal by Innocence and The Berlin Affair they were WET - and they were prepared by - wait for it - Pino Donaggio. But yes, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. And just to correct you, I don't THINK I ever "whined" about Up being the same or not the same as some download because I don't even know what the HELL the download is. I have the original Pixar promo CD and I'm quite certain I made no comment on it or your release - if I'm wrong, apologies all around. Furthermore, as you well know, I have been a very vocal supporter of Intrada for many years. I have on only a handful of occasions made posts you don't like - that's hardly goading and if you came into this thread to sully our upcoming release simply for spite, you have failed on all counts. Sorry.
The folks who buy the new version of Poltergeist II, a score I love, I think will find it to be an improvement, sound-wise, and certainly the extra material is all wonderful and all worth having. I think we can leave it at that, don't you?
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Ron, why do you bring this stuff over here? You are just adding to the fire.
Kim: I'm sorry you got burned. The fact is that this discussion is relevant. It's interesting, it's informative, and it's about film music of a high order (compared to a lot of the film music discussed here in the past couple of years).
Everyone here does not visit Intrada, and not everyone at Intrada visits here. It seems a fair exchange as long as everyone knows where the comments have been made.
With all due respects to Kim, I haven't been over at the Intrada board for a couple of weeks (as I've been out of town) so thanks to Ron for "bring(ing) this stuff over here" I was unaware of the discussion. It's always interesting to read comments by Doug and Bruce, all I want to add is that I'll be buying the Kritzerland release next Monday and I'm sure I'll love it as I do most of Intrada's releases. We are truly blessed to have such great people as Doug and Bruce bringing out all this fantastic music! Thanks guys!
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Posted: |
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:11 AM
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By: |
Altamese
(Member)
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Bruce Kimmel replied:
Well, Doug, the one thing we all learn, we who have labels, is that you ARE the Grand Poobah and are never wrong. Only you ARE completely wrong about the half-inch mixes I'm sorry to tell you. Every instrument is in EXACTLY the same place as on the two-track digital mixes, of course it's a true stereo mix, the synths are in EXACTLY the same places as the previous digital releases - the big difference, Mr. Poobah, is that the half-inches have beautiful dynamics, warmth and wonderful clarity, thanks to the beauty of analogue tape. The proof will be in the listening. I've been listening and comparing for days and there is no question what MY preference is, because it sounds wonderful to my ears. But just to hammer it home for you - and I'm sure you'll come back and want the last word - the orchestra placement and synth placement on the half-inch mixes is exactly the same as the digital mixes. James and I have listened and that's the way it is, much as it may not please you. And they are, I hate to tell you, Jerry's mixes.
I didn't begin this, Poobah, you did. It was unnecessary and I really have to call into question your assertion that you heard the half-inches, given that the information you posited about them and the orchestra in your initial post is completely incorrect. So, either you never heard them or your memory is failing or I have a different set of half-inches.
As to Pino, I'm glad you like what you did with the CD. You can dish out this stuff (about us, about other labels' work) but you don't like it when it comes back to you. In case you haven't noticed, I did several Pino scores, all of which he was thrilled with and all of which have the classic Pino sound - WET. When we got the original Italian mixes for Ordeal by Innocence and The Berlin Affair they were WET - and they were prepared by - wait for it - Pino Donaggio. But yes, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. And just to correct you, I don't THINK I ever "whined" about Up being the same or not the same as some download because I don't even know what the HELL the download is. I have the original Pixar promo CD and I'm quite certain I made no comment on it or your release - if I'm wrong, apologies all around. Furthermore, as you well know, I have been a very vocal supporter of Intrada for many years. I have on only a handful of occasions made posts you don't like - that's hardly goading and if you came into this thread to sully our upcoming release simply for spite, you have failed on all counts. Sorry.
The folks who buy the new version of Poltergeist II, a score I love, I think will find it to be an improvement, sound-wise, and certainly the extra material is all wonderful and all worth having. I think we can leave it at that, don't you?
And then Doug Fake replied (to an intervening poster):
Gosh, thanks. It ["the battle shots"] isn't normally my cup of tea. I have generally thought of the soundtrack labels as collectively being in the trenches together, trying to locate, restore, produce and present film scores at considerable expense to a highly specialized audience. Taking pot shots at fellow labels to me is akin to soldiers in a foxhole firing shots at each other. The real battlefield consists of time, wear and tear on the elements, missing reels, licensing difficulties, publishing fees and any number of related obstacles. You, our cherished customers, for whom these real battles are being fought, surely deserve a united front since you end up subsidizing everything. None-the-less, if these odd conflicts from within can be viewed as entertainment, then I suppose that is a good thing.
--Doug
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