Film Score Monthly
FSM HOME MESSAGE BOARD FSM CDs FSM ONLINE RESOURCES FUN STUFF ABOUT US  SEARCH FSM   
Search Terms: 
Search Within:   search tips 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 6:03 PM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

Neil, I hate to say this but I just checked the actual ep and although I can't be 100% certain (about this or anything else for that matter), I'm fairly sure that the section used in it was indeed the GNP version.

I don't think it's worth worrying about. Whichever version goes wherever. It's only the last 14 seconds or so. The rest of the cue is identical. Frankly, I think the version on the La La is the better, more well defined take. That's coming from someone who's been listening to this score, one way or another, and loving it for the best part of 40 years.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 6:13 PM   
 By:   Neil S. Bulk   (Member)

Neil, I hate to say this but I just checked the actual ep and although I can't be 100% certain (about this or anything else for that matter), I'm fairly sure that the section used in it was indeed the GNP version.

I don't think it's worth worrying about. Whichever version goes wherever. It's only the last 14 seconds or so. The rest of the cue is identical. Frankly, I think the version on the La La is the better, more well defined take. That's coming from someone who's been listening to this score, one way or another, and loving it for the best part of 40 years.


Ah, but did you check the mono laser disc? There is an obvious edit at the end where they went to a different take in the original mono track. If you're watching the DVD, I can't be sure of what they used, perhaps the same full take as the GNP. I'll stick with the LD as a reference.

Neil

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 6:29 PM   
 By:   Verity   (Member)

It's good to hear you say that, Jeff. While I enjoy Season 2 Duning, Season 3 Duning is just not the same. "Is There No Truth in Beauty?" is a nice score, but the other two just don't measure up. Other parts of Season 3 are sublime. Steiner is on FIRE in Season 3. Fielding and Fried are up there too. While I really, really enjoy "The Enterprise Incident" (playing now incidentally), "Plato's Stepchildren is a bit more... blah.

I also agree on your characterizations of Seasons 1 and 2. Wonderfully dark for the former, and a swashbuckling tour de force for the latter.

It is also surprising how many cues were dialed out or replaced. There is so much unreleased material in here to digest. This set is just too much fun! smile

I wouldn't condemn the third season music based on "And the Children Shall Lead"--to my mind it's the worst episode of the series: dour, heavy-handed, but not over the top enough to be entertaining (as other stories like "Plato's Stepchildren" are). What's remarkable to me is that Duning did anything interesting there at all--it's a score I never paid any mind to because I refused to suffer through the episode more than once or twice over the years--but there is some experimentation there and some interesting music, despite the subject. To each his own--I far prefer Duning's second season scores to his third, but I know many for whom "Is There No Truth In Beauty?" and "The Empath" are their favorite scores. But I also like that each season has a distinct overall mood and style--first season is dark, heavy and powerful, part Twilight Zone, part nautical adventure. Season two is swaggering, sharp and adventurous; season three is moody, less powerful and lush, but still often haunting. They had less money overall and probably fewer players, but that in itself creates an interesting, alternative sound.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 6:36 PM   
 By:   Neil S. Bulk   (Member)

Going back to The Doomsday Machine and "Goodbye M. Decker" here is the last word on it. Our set presents the correct take as heard in the original mono broadcast. You can hear it on the mono track on the Blu-ray and the Laser Disc and the VHS and the Beta tape.

The GNP album was most likely used as the source for the stereo re-mix on the DVD. The GNP uses the full take for the cue while we present the preferred pick-up take ending. So if you're saying our take doesn't match the show, it's because you're watching the 5.1 track where the wrong take crept into the mix. If you have the Blu-ray (or any of the extinct formats mentioned above) you'll hear that we are presenting the correct ending.

And if you listen to the 7.1 track on the Blu-ray you can't hear the ending at all, as it's covered by sound effects!

Now I am totally convinced that using the LDs as reference was absolutely the way to go.

Neil

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 6:43 PM   
 By:   sr-miller   (Member)

As good as Duning's scores are as MUSIC, I've never been especially fond of his Trek scores. Principally because all the episodes he did are among those I like LEAST, and two of them (The Empath & And the Children Shall Lead) I actually AVOID. I find his Trek music the best when it incorporates established Trek themes.
Of the previously unreleased music I enjoy Steiner's Elaan of Troyius and Spock's Brain the best. Now THAT'S Star Trek music!

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 6:57 PM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

Ah, but did you check the mono laser disc? There is an obvious edit at the end where they went to a different take in the original mono track. If you're watching the DVD, I can't be sure of what they used, perhaps the same full take as the GNP. I'll stick with the LD as a reference.

Neil


Looking at the remastered (with the fancy but good CGI) DVD. I'm pretty sure it features the same music tracks as in the episodes aired by the BBC over here since the year dot, and which I recorded to (now lost) VHS decades ago.

I wonder why the laserdisc producers spliced in a different take.... and where did they get an alternate take from?

Fascinating. wink

p.s. I agree that you made absolutely the right choice with the laser disc ref. version.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 7:04 PM   
 By:   Neil S. Bulk   (Member)

I wonder why the laserdisc producers spliced in a different take.... and where did they get an alternate take from?

They didn't! As I stated previously, the LDs represent the original mixes! It was the DVD that went to the GNP album for the stereo re-mix and where the wrong take came from.

I swear, this really is the last word on this matter.

Neil

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 7:08 PM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

McCoy gets the last word.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 7:54 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

It's confusing because now the DVD and even blu-ray releases (as well as the Remastered broadcasts) have been in circulation long enough that THEY are the available versions of the episodes that people are used to seeing and hearing. But the laserdiscs really do represent the episodes more or less as they were originally broadcast--and what us older folk remember from decades of syndicated broadcasts before the restorations. That's what we were going for in terms of the box set--we had the paperwork to determine the correct takes of the music, and the laserdiscs to doublecheck that those choices.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 9:20 PM   
 By:   kc-technerd   (Member)

That's what we were going for in terms of the box set--we had the paperwork to determine the correct takes of the music, and the laserdiscs to doublecheck that those choices.

Jeff, Neil,

I'm curious, did the laserdiscs always agree with the paperwork?

I'm also curious if anyone has evaluated the monaural soundtracks on the Blu-ray discs for accuracy (to the laserdiscs)?

I was thinking I had laserdiscs of a couple of Star Trek episodes which I couldn't find, but what I really was remembering were RCA SelectaVision (CED) VideoDiscs of Balance of Terror/Mirror Mirror and The Menagerie which I sold a long time ago. I was hoping to check them to see which version of the first season theme they used.

Brett

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 9:45 PM   
 By:   dukeman   (Member)

Having listened to the set a couple of times now to the point of noodling on specific cues in endless repeat and starting to edit all the "spaceship" cues I can find onto one CD, I am struck by how much good unused music was recorded. Any explanation why this would be the case? Doesn't seem very cost effective. Creative differences, scenes scored and then rejected, office politics, what? Too bad really as some of it would have really been good in the episodes it was composed for. Thank you all.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 10:10 PM   
 By:   Neil S. Bulk   (Member)

That's what we were going for in terms of the box set--we had the paperwork to determine the correct takes of the music, and the laserdiscs to doublecheck that those choices.

Jeff, Neil,

I'm curious, did the laserdiscs always agree with the paperwork?


My memory is yes, there was little deviation. I know there was at least one cue from "The Man Trap" that required intercutting between takes. I also remember discovering that the end title from "The Cage" was a different take than the one used on the GNP. Again, it was a pick up of just the end title. I used the black and white/color version of that for reference. Again, going back to the earliest source.

I'm also curious if anyone has evaluated the monaural soundtracks on the Blu-ray discs for accuracy (to the laserdiscs)?

Sadly, there are some mistakes on those, mostly in season 1. Sulu's fencing foil has some revised sound effects (confirmed not to be on the LD when I did this project) and "Miri"'s mono track uses the 2006 main title recording! There were some other things too, like the Enterprise having so much engine noise you couldn't hear the dialogue. I can't recall what episode that happened in though. It may not have even been an isolated case!

I was thinking I had laserdiscs of a couple of Star Trek episodes which I couldn't find, but what I really was remembering were RCA SelectaVision (CED) VideoDiscs of Balance of Terror/Mirror Mirror and The Menagerie which I sold a long time ago. I was hoping to check them to see which version of the first season theme they used.

Brett


Those CEDs for the season 1 episodes used the Steiner recording of the main title. I grew up with those (and the "Space Seed/The Changeling" disc).

Neil

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2012 - 10:52 PM   
 By:   captain_avis   (Member)

I'd been listening to my old GNP CDs prior to getting this set and had gotten accustomed to the fake stereo sound. I've found it hard to listen to the original mono recordings, despite their pristine sound quality. I'll probably be pilloried for saying this, but I've spent time using Audacity to convert a couple of discs of the set into fake stereo and I greatly prefer this sound. Anyone else done this?

Other than this, the set's absolutely stellar! I love how well it fits next to my Ron Jones set.

Cheers,

Chris.

 
 Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 5:23 AM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

The sound mixes for the DVDs has been a thorn in my paw since day one. So much has been screwed with to make it 5.1, the mix hardly resembles the original amymore. What you hear on any print from that source and afterward is NOT indicative of the original mix. The Blu-Ray first season is closest to anything on modern video, but as noted, the 2006 theme is heard on a couple of episodes. The 2nd and 3rd season mono tracks are not the original 1960's sound mix either. The exterior engine rumble is still present and it was abandoned late in the first season.

The VHS / Laserdisc prints are the closest to the original sound mix as we've ever gotten and even those aren't perfect. WNMHGB and The Man Trap had a few sound effects and music cues mixed way down. Plus the opening and closing themes in the first season were standardized to reflect the Steiner orchestration except for WNMHGB.

The DVD /Blu-Ray sound mixes are all over the map. So many music and sound effects changes. I always go back to the lasers when I watch an episode.

 
 Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 7:36 AM   
 By:   Josh "Swashbuckler" Gizelt   (Member)

I much prefer the crisp mono sound as heard on this new set over the ersatz stereo heard on the GNP discs.

I have to say that what's surprising to me here is that — once I had already bounced around the box set listening for all of those “moments” I'd been pining for, got that out of my system and settled down to listen to the music in a more ordered fashion — is just how damn GOOD this music is, in terms of composition, performance and dramatic gravitas.

Seriously, there is so much unreleased or unrecognized music here that I feel justified in saying that my reaction is not just nostalgia; I'm really being engaged by all of this music (yes, even the third season!). I am tearing through this set.

Several things really come across to me:

  • While each composer was able to being their own distinctive style to the show, this set really drives home how collaborative the process really was… knowing that their music was destined to be tracked and combined with work by other composers, they would occasionally incorporate each others’ motifs and themes. No matter how much of a personal stamp each composer put on their work, it still managed to blend together to create a specific “Star Trek sound.” It wasn't homogenous, but it was consistent.

  • The change in the flavor of the scores over the course of the series reflects an interesting tension between two primary elements of Star Trek that has repeated itself: “The Cage” in particular and the first season in general tend to be pretty straightforwardly science-fiction scores, just as Star Trek: The Motion Picture was — that is to say, illustrating ideas as much as the drama — but in both cases, the subsequent entries concentrated more on the action and adventure.

  • My reaction to Orion Vina on the back of the booklet was pretty much identical to Glenn Butler’s. I saw that image and immediately heard the theme in my head and thought, “Oh yeah. These guys don't know me, but they get me.”

  •  
     Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 7:49 AM   
     By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

    I'm surprised that, even after four decades of loving this music, that I am enjoying the third season scores as much as I have. Maybe because most of them never got any kind of representation (except the three suites). Whatever the reason, I am addicted to Spock's Brain and Elaan of Troyius the most. Spectre of the Gun and Is There in Truth No Beauty? are also favorites. The wailing trumpets in Beauty are a little crazy in the episode, but I love them on album. There is a lot of energy and excitement in these third season scores. Yet there was also so much haunting music which gave the season a very spooky quality. This was oddly appropriate for its 10 pm timeslot and the jettisoning of most of the humor.

    Way back in The Man Trap, I was also surprised at the amount of music not used in the episode. I can see why, I guess; it's all so damned lonely and depressing. The "Conference" cue is enough to drive a person to suicide. I want to layer this music over the scene to see how it plays. Man Trap is the perfect score for the episode, but it is SUCH a tough listen. I love it, but for playing in the car, it's inappropriate. Yet his very next score, The Naked Time, is so much different. Still very somber, but a little more lively and upbeat by comparison.

    I'm not one to go back and recreate all the tracked episodes (a daunting task), but I think I'll spend a little time to fill out the partial scores of Corbomite and Balance of Terror with their tracked music. Just for grins. A lot of the overlapping will make some of this difficult, but I can see why this was done. It has to be a listenable album first and an archive second. Still, I do miss having the cue breaks in The Cage and WNMHGB. And, since the music of WNMHGB is supposed to represent the unaired pilot, there should be a commercial break pause after Power Man as we go from Kirk calling the ship to the orbit shot of The Enterprise. But there ya go.

     
     Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 7:58 AM   
     By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

    "Power Man"--they actually should have used that title. smile

     
     Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 8:06 AM   
     By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

    big grin - I didn't even notice my typo.

    "...and Iron Fist." Which reminds me that James Blish turned Gary totally silver in his novelization.

     
     Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 9:11 AM   
     By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

    I'm not one to go back and recreate all the tracked episodes (a daunting task)

    I've started doing "Balance of Terror". It's kind of a bitch. I'll post what I've got this afternoon and let folks start pitching in.

     
     Posted:   Dec 19, 2012 - 9:40 AM   
     By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

    Well that one chops up bits of the score to Where No Man for some of the phaser firing scenes. Force Field gets rended pretty badly.

     
    You must log in or register to post.
      Go to page:    
    © 2014 Film Score Monthly. All Rights Reserved.