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Posted: |
Mar 21, 2014 - 12:57 PM
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By: |
bagby
(Member)
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Reviews of the film have been overwhelmingly positive so far, and outside of filmmusic aficionados,the (admittedly scant) reviews of the score in the film are as well:
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/review-marvels-captain-america-the-winter-soldier-starring-chris-evans-scarlett-johansson-robert-redford-20140320
"All that said, there is a lot to like here. It looks great, it sounds great (Henry Jackman's score is a keeper),..."
http://variety.com/2014/film/reviews/film-review-captain-america-the-winter-soldier-1201139253/
"...craft contributions are generally topnotch, especially the sharp D.C. location shooting of d.p. Trent Opaloch (“District 9, “Elysium”) and Henry Jackman’s rousing, propulsive score (incorporating bits of Alan Silvestri’s “First Avenger” fanfare)."
And in one review from Germany, translated by Google:
http://www.filmstarts.de/kritiken/193113/kritik.html
"Also in the nervous-propulsive music by Henry Jackman ("Captain Phillips", "Kick-Ass") sounds again and again to the tradition of classic paranoia thriller. But the composer is also understood to martial heroes-symphonic, because in spite of all, "The Return Of The First Avenger" is still a comic adaptation of the proven large scale and with much Krachwumm. "
Me, I have tickets to a double feature on April 3 of the first and second films back to back. I guess we'll see how Mr. Jackman's score stands up to Mr. Silvestri's (which, though I like a great deal, shows its derivation from Mr. Williams' 'Superman' a bit too often for comfort).
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I guess it depends on how you describe "old fashioned."
Many of my favorite scores are not what I'd call old fashioned. I don't need an orchestra, or grand melodies, or leitmotifs, or any of that (though I like those, too). What I do need is some organizing principle, some technique or instrumentation or idea or something to latch onto.
Basically, something to distinguish music from mere sound.
Now I haven't even heard this new "Captain America" score, so I have no idea whether it has anything for me. I'm talking in general.
About the scores being written to serve the film, to borrow your phrase, "Well, duh indeed." But I don't know that I'd say that all of these scores serve their films well, or well enough. Just my opinion.
Just to clarify, I meant "old-fashioned" for the Iron Man 3 end credits in the sense that it is an intentionally old-fashioned piece of music - a theme arranged to sound like a modern take on 60s/70s crime/spy thrillers.
What troubles me about the nature of these discussions is that aficionados who don't like current trends do use the characterization you have, "something to distinguish music from mere sound."
These scores are musical by definition - with every element organized, thought-out, arranged for whatever purpose needed. They all have musical ideas, organizing principles, what have you. (Not judging the quality, just stating the facts.)
Many people who like certain kinds of film music don't like certain other kinds of film music and wish that the kind of music they liked was still being used. And so people use the usual canard - calling it noise. Like my grandparents called The Beatles "noise." My grandparents were wrong, it wasn't noise, it was music. But they certainly didn't have to like it.
I think all of us here are all such outliers by definition - we think it's fun to listen to whole film scores away from the film! - that it warps our sense of what makes music work in movies. Especially as we've developed our taste over the years. And I think we believe that music is fundamentally important in a movie whether it really is or not.
My confession - I am NEVER sorry for an un-scored moment in a film, even if it drops part of a score that I love to listen to (like much of the "Crash Landing" cue dialed out of Planet of the Apes).
So I have a much higher tolerance for a more minimal approach to scoring, and I think it's just mistaken to say that because it doesn't work for me personally as a listener it must be bad, it makes the film worse, etc.
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Posted: |
Mar 21, 2014 - 2:35 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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What troubles me about the nature of these discussions is that aficionados who don't like current trends do use the characterization you have, "something to distinguish music from mere sound."
You make a fair point, and there's room for debate on this. As Zimmer apparently pointed out on Twitter, "The Rite of Spring" was, at its premiere, considered by many (not all) to be noise, and yet today it is one of the most influential pieces of music of the past 101 years. Is a single middle C played on piano music, while the sound of a rock repeatedly hitting a metal beam just sound? There are gray areas aplenty.
My only criteria for myself is whether I like it. Is listening to a score by itself a way to judge a film score? Well no, but it is a way to judge a CD (or download), and that's perfectly valid. As you say, we've all picked a strange animal to be fans of -- the music is written to serve a purpose other than pure listening -- but we can validly judge it in both ways, while acknowledging that a separate listening experience is not the composer's first duty.
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Good point - "my only criteria for myself is whether I like it." It's a helpful distinction. My first consideration is whether it works in the movie, and only secondarily my own personal preference.
And for me, most music works fine in the movie as long as it's not too intrusive, taking attention away from the scene ("Awakenings" is for me a powerful example of that, music that overpowers other elements of the film).
In a superhero movie, I don't think the music is inherently important to the success of the film, as there are just so many ways to score this kind of thing and every way has been done to death already. If it has great music, terrific, but if it doesn't, I don't much care.
I also realize that I never say to myself, "this movie should have X kind of music!" Instead, I tend to think, "hmm, what kind of music does this movie have?" If I like the music enough on its own, I buy it, and if I don't, I don't hate it, I just leave it alone.
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A interview with Henry Jackman on samplesumo where he mentioned his work on Wintersoldier:
https://www.samplesumo.com/artists/henry-jackman
Unfortunately Henry Jackman give's no clue why he has not used the remarkable C. America theme by Alan Silvesri in his score.
Also Mr. Jackman will not do C. America again. Maybe we get a third and completely different C. America theme in 2016 ;-).
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This score is great. Inventive and interesting. Plenty of callbacks to Silvestri's theme and a nice balance of old/new scoring techniques. THE WINTER SOLDIER track is the cue of the year.
When people say "Silvestri's theme" do they mean the actual theme or just something that sounds enough like it to say "This is where the old theme would go"? Like in the Smithsonian track?
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But just a regular recording of a timpani is going to be boring and just sound like every other timpani, but let’s start with that as a source sound."
It's getting so bad comments like this are nothing short of laughable.
Why? He is trying to find something new about the timpani sound to use in one particular score.
Without putting him in the same league as Mozart - but I´m sure that he also was looking for a new sound, breaking rules and considering previous approaches as boring.
That´s what artists do - striving to find something that interests them. We don´t have to like it. But to dismiss it just because he wants to move on from the familiar is silly.
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A interview with Henry Jackman on samplesumo where he mentioned his work on Wintersoldier:
https://www.samplesumo.com/artists/henry-jackman
Unfortunately Henry Jackman give's no clue why he has not used the remarkable C. America theme by Alan Silvesri in his score.
Also Mr. Jackman will not do C. America again. Maybe we get a third and completely different C. America theme in 2016 ;-).
How often do composers use other composer's themes? It seems to me that the only time it happens is if the music is so identified with a property (Star Wars, James Bond, Pink Panther, Harry Potter). I don't see Captain America being in that list. (Or Iron Man or Thor or The Avengers.)
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Posted: |
Mar 24, 2014 - 10:38 AM
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By: |
Hedji
(Member)
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How often do composers use other composer's themes? It seems to me that the only time it happens is if the music is so identified with a property (Star Wars, James Bond, Pink Panther, Harry Potter). I don't see Captain America being in that list. (Or Iron Man or Thor or The Avengers.)
Maybe the reason we see less of that nowadays for films like Iron Man, Thor, Avengers is, let's be honest, their themes are nowhere near as iconic or indelible as, say, Williams' score for Superman. So there's less of a desire to re-use the theme for the sequels.
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But just a regular recording of a timpani is going to be boring and just sound like every other timpani, but let’s start with that as a source sound."
It's getting so bad comments like this are nothing short of laughable.
Why? He is trying to find something new about the timpani sound to use in one particular score.
Without putting him in the same league as Mozart - but I´m sure that he also was looking for a new sound, breaking rules and considering previous approaches as boring.
That´s what artists do - striving to find something that interests them. We don´t have to like it. But to dismiss it just because he wants to move on from the familiar is silly.
It's like saying watercolor paintings are boring or oil paintings are boring. So I guess classical music is boring because it uses those old fashion instruments made of brass and wood? It's a retarded statement. The final straw? Nothing he has done comes close to the elegance and beauty of his predecessors.
No. You seem to deliberately misunderstand that quote. He does not state that timpani or any other instruments are boring. But for this particular purpose he is looking for something else, so he uses the "natural" sound to create something different with it.
And really - "retarded"?
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You are right - there are other ways, too. But for him, it was this method. Perfectly fine - or is there a taste police deciding which way an artist may work?
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Jesus, this place is home for drama queens. 
