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 Posted:   Nov 6, 2013 - 8:25 PM   
 By:   Ron Hardcastle   (Member)

pp312: Re: "One thing has struck me about this discussion: only one person has attempted any sort of rebuttal of specific criticisms. Does that mean the others acknowledge the faults but don't care about them, or they just can't be bothered addressing the issue."

I honestly think that those of us who surrendered, some happily, some reluctantly, to the charms of "Prometheus" don't feel that we need to take the time to justify why we like it. As for it having a lousy script, while imperfect, I would never dismiss it as you have. I'm in the middle of 3 different things and haven't even started dinner, so there's a lot pulling we away from here. But I'll say it again: Art is subjective and the art of the cinema is probably the most subjective of all. We see that here all the time, with some loving soundtracks that others can't stand, and of course that applies to films too. I don't feel that it's my job to explain in detail why I enjoy a movie and why I may happen to disagree with those ripping it apart -- although you seem to feel that it's evidence that what some of us happen to like must not be worth taking the time to write a thesis on it. The movie has grown on me and I find it hard, when I stumble across it on HD cable, to NOT watch it, even though I have its Blu-ray in my collection. It's not perfect -- what movie is? -- but what you and others dismissing it have written simply doesn't compute with what I saw when I watched it. I'd like to say "Get over it," but you would probably find a way to ridicule that too. I happily enjoy watching that movie and you don't. Why be bothered by my admiration for it? Why not, instead, channel some of those feelings to things you do love?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 12:48 AM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

pp312: Re: "One thing has struck me about this discussion: only one person has attempted any sort of rebuttal of specific criticisms. Does that mean the others acknowledge the faults but don't care about them, or they just can't be bothered addressing the issue."

I'd like to say "Get over it," but you would probably find a way to ridicule that too.


Er, I read your other comments with some interest. but I would protest the "ridicule' bit. Asking for someone's reaction to specific points of criticism, such as dramatic weaknesses or plot holes, is not 'ridicule'.

Let me provide an example. As I've said, my favourite movie is Ben-Hur. One of the criticisms often leveled at that film concerns the use of models in the sea battle. I consider this a valid criticism, but I also recognise that had they built all full size galleys (there are two) the budget would have suffered elsewhere. Also, the use of models allowed for some very intriguing and dramatic lighting, which gives this scene an atmosphere it would otherwise have lacked (like the sea battle in Cleopatra, which did use full size galleys). Personally I find it a very exciting and dramatic scene, but I appreciate that others get caught up on the model thing. So my defense of the scene would be that what it lacks in one area--verisimilitude--it makes up for in another--dramatic atmosphere. See how one can defend a scene on different grounds? That is, of course, if it is defensible.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 1:50 AM   
 By:   Ian J.   (Member)

I'd just like to pipe up and say that I quite like Prometheus, despite it's flaws which I readily acknowledge and point out. I have the Blu-ray, and it was from that that I understood the somewhat short production time for a movie of its size that seems to have compromised the script writing.

Does that mean I forgive it its weaknesses? Possibly, but I am still aware of them, and still enjoy watching the film despite knowing them. But my acceptance of the flaws being there doesn't mean I accept that they are OK to be there. I still believe that the story and script should have been more carefully constructed and executed, and that Scott and the writing team failed in that regard.

I still look forward to P2 though.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 1:58 AM   
 By:   CinemaScope   (Member)

pp312: Re:
I don't feel that it's my job to explain in detail why I enjoy a movie and why I may happen to disagree with those ripping it apart -- although you seem to feel that it's evidence that what some of us happen to like must not be worth taking the time to write a thesis on it. The movie has grown on me and I find it hard, when I stumble across it on HD cable, to NOT watch it, even though I have its Blu-ray in my collection. It's not perfect -- what movie is? -- but what you and others dismissing it have written simply doesn't compute with what I saw when I watched it. I'd like to say "Get over it," but you would probably find a way to ridicule that too. I happily enjoy watching that movie and you don't. Why be bothered by my admiration for it? Why not, instead, channel some of those feelings to things you do love?


That was my point in my post, we all love bad movies. Only last week I bought the Blu-ray of Expendables 2 (don't judge me, I also bought The Life & Death Of Colonel Blimp). I also have the Blu of Red Planet (a great bit of pulp sci-fi) the 1976 King Kong, it's a long list. I can enjoy these movies without feeling the need to defend them (or me). If you liked Prometheus, fine, what do you care what other people think of it, but you go online to defend it, say it's a good movie, well you have to expect an argument.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 2:14 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

That was my point in my post, we all love bad movies. Only last week I bought the Blu-ray of Expendables 2 (don't judge me, I also bought The Life & Death Of Colonel Blimp). I also have the Blu of Red Planet (a great bit of pulp sci-fi) the 1976 King Kong, it's a long list. I can enjoy these movies without feeling the need to defend them (or me). If you liked Prometheus, fine, what do you care what other people think of it, but you go online to defend it, say it's a good movie, well you have to expect an argument.

True, but in this case it was the other way around -- (yet another) criticism of the film spurred those of us who love it to come to its defense. It's very natural, I think.

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 7:02 AM   
 By:   Ron Hardcastle   (Member)

Thor:

Re: "... (yet another) criticism of the film spurred those of us who love it to come to its defense. It's very natural, I think."

Precisely. It shouldn't be the responsibility of lovers of any variety of art to defend their love of it (or explain why specific flaws don't bother them) to those who happen to dislike it. And with that I'm going to at least try to stop participating in this. I enjoy the movie, even watched a couple more chunks of it last night on cable, and am not going to stop enjoying it. Finis.

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 8:57 AM   
 By:   RoryR   (Member)

Thor:

Re: "... (yet another) criticism of the film spurred those of us who love it to come to its defense. It's very natural, I think."

Precisely. It shouldn't be the responsibility of lovers of any variety of art to defend their love of it (or explain why specific flaws don't bother them) to those who happen to dislike it. And with that I'm going to at least try to stop participating in this. I enjoy the movie, even watched a couple more chunks of it last night on cable, and am not going to stop enjoying it. Finis.


I tried killing this thread before and to my amazement it's still going strong. Look, all you lovers of PROMETHEUS and all things Ridley Scott or ALIEN, I didn't start this thing to debate the aesthetic qualities of PROMETHEUS or it's fans love of it. We are all, to varying degrees, connoisseurs of movies. Why do I say, to varying degrees? This is the definition of connoisseur in my Funk & Wagnells: "A competent critical judge of anything, especially in matters of art and taste." Now, human beings, which we all are, are not equal. Some are smarter than others, some stronger, some more emotionally mature, some more wise, and some... some are better at being critical judges of things, in our case popular movies, than others. I'll bet that most of us, me included, like to believe they we are at the very least quite competent at judging the qualities of the movies they like or even love. But outside of our own personal bubbles, are we really? Personally, I question my judgements all the time, and I like having my opinions and tastes challenged in forums like this precisely because it forces me to question my own conclusions. So, I think everyone should try to be a little less thin skinned. In life you're going to meet many people that simply aren't going to agree with you on many things, like how much you enjoy certain foods. One man's fine wine is another man's piss water. That's just the way it is.

I did not start this thread to debate the artistic merits, or lack there of, of the movie PROMETHEUS. My intention was first to vent my annoyance with Ridley Scott and the whole world of fandom and the, from my aesthetic, utter idiocy of desiring sequels to anything that makes a large gross (hence the foul language), and second to wonder about the politics inside of 20th Century Fox. I think now that I should have thought this out more before I posted the damn thing. It all too quickly gets misunderstood and degenerates into something else.

So, all I'm wondering is, why should there be a sequel to PROMETHEUS? Did it present a complete story? I would content that a narrative film should present a complete story, but that's of course debatable for others, so... Should it have presented a complete story? Just what the hell is it? A reboot of the ALIEN franchise, or the start of a new franchise? Do you think Ridley Scott knows? I'm not sure. Do you think the suits inside Fox know? I have real doubts. I don't think the film, despite its worldwide gross, made as much money as Fox hoped it would. I believe, based on things I've read, that the movie was a disappointment for the studio. Remember, a large gross doesn't entirely indicate that a studio actually profited by the film. PROMETHEUS may have "made its money back," but was there enough gravy (money) to go around for all? Is it possible that Scott and everyone else involved need a sequel merely to justify the making of the first film, and to produce more gravy for everyone involved? Was the film in fact purposely made the way it was, i.e. rather ambigious (to say the least), simply in order to generate a desire for a sequel in its appreciative audience? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? It seems to me that it is a bad thing. It's what the industry had devolved to -- every movie that makes some money deserves a sequel, not because as art it should have one, but instead that as a commodity it requires one. We live in a culture now where something like TED is going to get a sequel. Now really... does anyone seriously think TED needs a sequel? Is this what we've come to? Depressingly, the answer is yes, and even more depressingly, we've been there for quite a while, so much so that some fans of movies, even connoisseurs, have completely drunk the Kool-Aid, and I contend, no longer know piss from fine wine.

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 11:47 AM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

In regards to why I have addressed some of the criticism and flaws as pointed out (and even corroborated some of them) is because I have seen the movie just recently for the third time or so and sat through the 3+ hours making of docu, so the story elements are still fresh in my mind. I like discussing movies but I agree that those who like the movie are doing a poor job IMO of explaining why and those whose criticism I have replied to seem to not want to discuss those points any further so to me this whole thread feels like barely a discussion and more like going in circles; I mean, now we have to meta-discuss how we feel towards movies and that some people react differently to movies than others? On a film music message board? For real? Francis has gone and taken that android's head, has gone to the garage beneath skull mountain to take one and them ships and get the hell out of dodge! feel free to continue to sliver in the black goo if you must. wink

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 1:08 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I did not start this thread to debate the artistic merits, or lack there of, of the movie PROMETHEUS. My intention was first to vent my annoyance with Ridley Scott and the whole world of fandom and the, from my aesthetic, utter idiocy of desiring sequels to anything that makes a large gross (hence the foul language), and second to wonder about the politics inside of 20th Century Fox.

I'm sorry that your topic ventured away from that, but thanks for the repeat of your intentions.

If you're annoyed with Scott and the world of fandom, that's fine. I can't really say anything to that, as that's your reaction alone.

As for desiring sequels, there may any number of reasons for that. The company may desire a sequel if the film does well, the director may desire a sequel if he already had planned a multi-film story in his mind or if he wants to explore the world further, an audience may desire a sequel because they loved the film and want to explore the world further (like the director). This will depend on who you ask.

As for the politics inside 20th Century Fox, we can only speculate on that. Speculation is not something I generally like to do. I'd rather like to focus on what's in front of me and evaluate that.

In short, I'm not sure how much discussion potential there was in your original intentions. If you didn't intend any discussion and just wanted to vent, that's fine too -- but since this is a messageboard and not a blog, discussions will normally ensue if someone finds anything to talk about in the post.

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 2:51 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Aside from P being a piece of pure escapist fiction - should you choose to accept it as such, there are inherent heretical ideas within it - should you not.

Now, how do you resolve the principal idea at the the heart of the story with your own notion of reality, or the bedrock philosophy of life you clothe yourself in? You may say, oh, it's just so much nonsense that I can resolve within the confines of the obvious and, as such, take it for the bunk it really is.

But there are some who really do think along the lines projected by the film as being a part of their accepted 'doctrine' - that is - what is 'real' to them. In this form, the film is not just a film. It's a message in a bottle. A seed well and truly planted. The ideas within are just as slippery and transmissable as the infectious black goo seen in the film. What say you to that?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 2:57 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I don't think I understood a single word of what you just said.

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 3:02 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Do you accept that there are cults?

You may be aware of them in a peripheral sense, but you choose to ignore them because they are silly and there is no way that you will entertain the preposterous notions they proclaim. Or have them interfere with your life in any way. They just plain can't gain entry.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 3:09 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Cults? What has that got to do with a discussion of PROMETHEUS or anything slightly relevant to it? I'm afraid you've lost me, bro.

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 3:18 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

There are such people as 'scientologists,' is somewhere where I'm at. But I'll argue simply that one of the ideas in the film is that of infiltration. In lots of different ways. Just an idea - that's all wink

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 3:22 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

I don't think I understood a single word of what you just said.

I'm going to frame this post. I think it's a thought we should all have in front of us every day at the computer. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 3:28 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

I enjoy the movie, even watched a couple more chunks of it last night on cable, and am not going to stop enjoying it. Finis.

But Ron, dear Ron, you must stop enjoying it. We absolutely demand it. We will not have you enjoying it when we don't. It's simply not fair. Now come right immediately and stop enjoying this movie before we have to get firm with you. You won't like it, believe me.


smile

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 3:28 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

There are such people as 'scientologists,' is somewhere where I'm at. But I'll argue simply that one of the ideas in the film is that of infiltration. In lots of different ways. Just an idea - that's all wink

Infiltration? Hmmm....do you mean the black goo/black worms that infiltrate their host bodies?

 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 5:37 PM   
 By:   Ron Hardcastle   (Member)

pp312:

Re: "But Ron, dear Ron, you must stop enjoying it. We absolutely demand it. We will not have you enjoying it when we don't. It's simply not fair. Now come right immediately and stop enjoying this movie before we have to get firm with you. You won't like it, believe me."

But that, despite the kidding, really seems to be how it is with you, so horrified that anyone could possibly enjoy a film that you personally find so bereft of merit. Take a close look at the viewer assessments at Netflix, where the movies with an abundance of 5 (maximum) stars also have an abundance of 1 (minimum) star. My favorite film (and it's NOT "Prometheus") may give you a headache, and yours might do the same for me. That's the way it is, and our pointless skirmishes here aren't going to change it.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 6:46 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

pp312:

Re: "But Ron, dear Ron, you must stop enjoying it. We absolutely demand it. We will not have you enjoying it when we don't. It's simply not fair. Now come right immediately and stop enjoying this movie before we have to get firm with you. You won't like it, believe me."

But that, despite the kidding, really seems to be how it is with you, so horrified that anyone could possibly enjoy a film that you personally find so bereft of merit. Take a close look at the viewer assessments at Netflix, where the movies with an abundance of 5 (maximum) stars also have an abundance of 1 (minimum) star. My favorite film (and it's NOT "Prometheus") may give you a headache, and yours might do the same for me. That's the way it is, and our pointless skirmishes here aren't going to change it.


Even if that were true, which I dispute, surely my post hints at a certain self-awareness. The fact is, we all get a little passionate when defending things we love or dismissing/attacking things we detest, but when the dust settles we should make time for reassessment. A certain evangelical zeal can creep in when you encounter people who see gold where you see only trash.

Or as Peter Ustinov said: "It's not that other people hate the things I love, it's that they love the things I hate."

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 7, 2013 - 7:30 PM   
 By:   Matt S.   (Member)

I did not start this thread to debate the artistic merits, or lack there of, of the movie PROMETHEUS. My intention was first to vent my annoyance with Ridley Scott and the whole world of fandom and the, from my aesthetic, utter idiocy of desiring sequels to anything that makes a large gross (hence the foul language), and second to wonder about the politics inside of 20th Century Fox.

I'm sorry that your topic ventured away from that, but thanks for the repeat of your intentions.

If you're annoyed with Scott and the world of fandom, that's fine. I can't really say anything to that, as that's your reaction alone.

As for desiring sequels, there may any number of reasons for that. The company may desire a sequel if the film does well, the director may desire a sequel if he already had planned a multi-film story in his mind or if he wants to explore the world further, an audience may desire a sequel because they loved the film and want to explore the world further (like the director). This will depend on who you ask.

As for the politics inside 20th Century Fox, we can only speculate on that. Speculation is not something I generally like to do. I'd rather like to focus on what's in front of me and evaluate that.

In short, I'm not sure how much discussion potential there was in your original intentions. If you didn't intend any discussion and just wanted to vent, that's fine too -- but since this is a messageboard and not a blog, discussions will normally ensue if someone finds anything to talk about in the post.


I have nothing to add to the discussion about Prometheus, having never seen it, but the OP's original question as to why a sequel needs to be made, or why studios are so ready to make sequels to anything marginally successful, is simply because they're less risky. Sequels and reboots come with built-in fanbases, so they're almost guaranteed moneymakers. There is almost always diminishing returns in terms of quality, but that rarely matters at the box office. No matter how bad Kingdom of the Crystal Skull may have been, a fifth Indiana Jones film will make hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Same for Star Wars Episode VII.

Everything is being rebooted or remade these days. The big studios just don't seem willing to take any major risks on anything truly original.

 
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