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Posted: |
Feb 28, 2003 - 5:09 PM
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By: |
Cooper
(Member)
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Coop: First of all, we really need a new thread--we're gonna be at 200 posts here. May I suggest for the new topic name:
Buffy & Beck together again?
Because I sure hope that will be the case. Please, please, oh please, let Buffy go out on the note (literally) it deserves.
I'm posting before reading the article you mentioned, so I don't know if Whedon's already been specific about the possible spinoff. But I've been meaning to say for awhile that Whedon's made no secret of being Allyson Hannigan's biggest fan. So my money would be on a Willow spinoff. And no, I don't have any inside info, just a gut feeling.
Ron: yes, I've heard it's Faith AND Angel returning in a five part arc. I'm with you--be still my heart! Now if only Beck will score it, I'll truly be in heaven.
Joan: I'm sorry, hon, but you'll have to get your head out of the sand about Buffy ending. It's a done deal, but at least it sounds like they're going to go out in style.
Debi:
Well, what with our being so close to the 200 posts mark, I figured we may as well crest that particular hill in honor of the bitchin' series, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" calling it quits. Okay, I admit it. I'm just lazy. Look for the new thread under: "Buffy: Beck to the Hellmouth? & a Spinoff at Stake" I'll start it now, and repost this there...
Hopefully you guys will be game to offer your input on the "Whedon-verse" over the course of what will--fingers crossed--be Angel's fifth year beginning this Fall...and jump in on any Buffy spinoff that might take shape mid-season, or even in the Fall of '04 (doesn't sound as though we could hope for anything as soon as this year).
As for a Willow/Hannigan series, I think nothing would be cooler; it couldn't help but be unique. Hannigan's certainly got the acting chops, and with Willow's prowess in alchemy, she has a permanent, built-in demon she'll always be struggling with...so there'd always be a lot of conflict from within, as well as without. Alyson's sounded decidedly cool about going on in any form, though, even if Whedon were to be at the helm, so that'd probably be the biggest hurdle for any such project. Would the network be squeamish about anchoring a series with a lesbian character, especially when Whedon hasn't done much flinching with regard to girl/girl intimacy in the past on Buffy? Hard to say. Would they lose some viewership? Even if it bores a guy like the Captain Archer admiring Andrew (as evidenced in his choosing Xander's craftsmanship over a Willow/Kennedy make-out session as video subject), the male demographic generally finds this titillating (or, maybe I should speak for myself?), but I haven't a clue about the female audience. I don't know; in general, Buffy audiences aren't knee-jerk. I don't mention this to be "political". Buffy has never dealt with this subject politically, just dramatically--in terms of good story--like anything else. But people tend to make these things political, and I just wondered if the network would be up for the press and attention it might get when moving Willow to the fore. I think UPN might be up for ANY attention at this point.
The other factor is that I have a gut feeling that another Chosen One will likely form the core of any spinoff, which would probably relegate Willow to the supporting cast. Going the other way around, though, would be a neat twist. Let Willow star, have the Slayer get second billing this time. I think a dynamic duo of Willow and Kennedy--with Spike, Xander and Dawn (maybe Andrew)--filling in the ranks, would be just fantastic.
--Coop
Okay, looks like we're up and running again in the new thread home. Just when you Film Score Monthly board surfers thought this Buffy thing was going to go away...
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Posted: |
Feb 28, 2003 - 9:59 PM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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Great title, Cooper!
Aawww shucks debi, if I pull my head out of the sand and see a Buffyless future, I’ll have
to call my doctor for prozac. Seems so bloody depressing. Guess I have to get use to it.
I am excited about the last 5 episodes and can’t even speculate on how it will all end.
Cooper, I wonder too if a Willow led series would be a go and if audiences would support
a Lesbian Leader. No problem with channels like Showtime (Queer as Folk), but I don’t
know about regular cable. Will and Grace have survived so far. Maybe at least some of
the viewing audience isn’t so uptight about sexual orientation. We’ve come a long way
from Leave It To Beaver. What I don’t want is a tepid, luke-warm, mediocre spin off
utilizing some of the same characters. I want to see these characters go on and on and
onnnnnn, but I want Whedon’s stamp of quality and excellence. Sometimes sequels or
extensions work. I.E. Godfather II. Sometimes they’re wretched. Godfather III. I’ll
cross my fingers for a meritorious future from Whedon. (But in the meantime, I’m going
into a deep funk and pout for a while!!)
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Posted: |
Mar 2, 2003 - 9:56 PM
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By: |
Mike P.
(Member)
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Debi: Heh, for some reason I didn't notice your strong complaint for the electric guitar Spike music when I posted last time. You know, I was just happy to actually notice the music for once. The electric guitar plus the Matrix-y parts (for Buffy's ordeal) near the end really fit those particular scenes, IMO. It did what the music hadn't done in awhile - try to tell a story along with the scene. Eh, just my opinion.
-------
It may be the end of Buffy, but with the season picking up these past three episodes it looks like we will at least be in for one hell of a ride. Angel is set to air 10 (10!) consecutive new shows as well, so it should be good times for at least awhile.
BTW, I guess I can mention my casting spoiler now that the cat is out of the bag. It was merely that the WB had given Joss permission to let Angel appear on the *finale* of Buffy, if it was important to the story. I never heard anything of Angel appearing in 5 episodes though. Do you remember where you head that Coop?
I wonder if the spinoff is meant to be Ripper? Or is it something completely separate? It certainly sounds like it’s some concept that hasn’t been tossed around publicly. I would love to see a Willow centered show. I think that Allyson’s coolness is simply that she won’t agree to just anything (unlike Nicolas Brendan, who wants to be part of any sort of Buffy spin-off that occurs) – but she if the show is good enough I think getting her to do it won’t be a problem.
Oh, btw, I loved the Andrew episode. Very funny. I wonder if the tepidness between Willow and Kennedy’s kiss was meant to show how sexy Andrew considered the kiss (as in not at all sexy), or if both actresses simply didn’t like having to do it. Also, Andrew earned massive points when he walked out of another of Buffy’s long winded speeches.
Still, why did he have to kill Jonathon??
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Posted: |
Mar 3, 2003 - 1:09 AM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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Bits and pieces of information to share with my Buffy Buddies.
My daughter who lives in Seattle went to a Science Fiction convention that included
Buffy and Angel characters. (Spike, Loren, and the floppy eared demon.) She said that
Loren and the demon without make up were very good looking.
She only went to Spike’s presentation. She said Spike gave a great talk to the audience
and graciously answered all questions. In a nutshell, he said he was very sad Buffy was
ending as he thought they’d go on forever, the cast gets along and are friends, he really
admires Whedon and the cast often go to Whedon’s home after long shoots to drink and
talk, Spike himself doesn’t drink at all, Whedon wants to develop some type of off shoot
series involving Spike and others from the show but it hasn’t been written yet and is only
in the formative stage, this new program may not be on next year but maybe the year after,
and Spike has a band and loves singing and playing in it.
Spike wants to sometime produce and play MacBeth. He did the “Tomorrow” speech for
the audience, and my daughter thought he sounded great. He also did a song from the
musical.
One lady in the audience kind of chewed him out for the attempted rape scene with Buffy.
She said that, “Youngsters watch this show and that such a scene could have a bad
influence on them.” Well, duh, I never thought that Buffy was for youngsters. Funny that
she didn’t jump on the other controversial issues seen in the program. Spike was very
gracious to her saying that neither he nor Gellar really wanted to do the scene but that it
was essential to drive him into leaving for a soul.
Finally Spike talked a little about his band and said he had a great drummer who was 19
and had to quit to leave on his mission, so my daughter put together that his drummer has
a mission and that Spike doesn’t drink so maybe he is a Mormon. That doesn’t jive with
my image of the cigarette chain smoking Spike who tells everyone to, “Sod off.”
One bit of very sad news. Our friend Jack used to post with us on our Buffy threads quite often. He was
battling cancer and waiting for special surgery. At Moviemusic.com, one of the members
said Jack died a few months ago. He will be missed and remembered.
Yeah, where is Giles??
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Posted: |
Mar 3, 2003 - 3:07 AM
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By: |
Cooper
(Member)
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Mike/Joan:
I doubt that the spinoff--in formative stages--is "Ripper," which I think was being set up with the BBC (on indefinite hold, I understand). And, recently, Whedon made some comment about wanting to be sure that the lead for the spinoff was pretty. That's a descriptor most often applied to girls/women...and given that this spinoff would arguably be more of a direct extension of Buffy, I would wager he (Whedon) would want to keep his feminist themes by going with a female star.
On the other hand, Joan, did your daughter give you the impression that Marsters thought he was going to anchor the spinoff...or that he was going to just be part of the ol' ensemble carried over from Buffy to the new series?
And, yes, Mike, I think they were definitely trying to suggest something about Andrew in his being too distracted to capture better coverage of that Willow/Kennedy kissage on the couch. At least he got some of it; too bad his camera didn't have "lesbidar," as Willow put it.
Does Alexis Denisof have anything to fear from Iyari Limon? Should he be jealous?
I'm not sure how I feel about any spinoff taking a year so to get off the ground, but maybe that'll give everyone a chance to re-charge, creatively, and for some audience interest to build outside of Buffy's existing, loyal cult. What do you guys think?
Did Jack ever post to this thread, Joan?
The Giles absence thing will probably be remedied with a throw-away line or two to explain his whereabouts next time he shows up.
--Coop
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Posted: |
Mar 3, 2003 - 3:01 PM
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By: |
Cooper
(Member)
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You know, Cooper, I never really thought about Whedon wanting to feature a female lead and feminist issues. Geez, I like that guy more and more.
I think I remember Whedon saying in interviews that the genesis of Buffy was wanting to take that prototypical, victimized blonde from genre films and invert the conventions by having her be able to take care of herself down some dark alley. From there, I guess he just imbued her with a little extra strength, layered in some demonic metaphor and, voila, Buffy was born.
I like that Whedon's brand of feminism is not "anti-femininity". In fact, it sometimes seems to be a celebration of it...and not too far removed from depcitions of women in Japanese anime', where the girls are often hyper-feminine and super-powerful; I remember Buffy defiantly saying to The Master at some point, "I'm still pretty...," before kicking his ass (this was after her first death by drowning, I think). Maybe there's a bit of "fem-dom" fetishism mixed in with these ideas? At any rate, interesting stuff, in that feminists of one school despise traditional depictions of the feminine. I'd love to hear what they'd have to say about a show like Buffy, where the girls are sometimes sexy, diminutive ass-kickers, the lesbians are lipstick variety, etc. I remember one of Jenny Calendar's lines toward the end of season one (of Buffy herself, expressing disbelief that she was the Slayer): "...She's so tiny!"
Whedon did a great interview with The Onion a year or so ago where he talked about some of these ideas, the birth of the Buffy series, and I was impressed with his thoughts on dramatic conflict, which feed and justify that familiar "Don't give 'em what they want..." credo. Elsewhere, he discussed his atheism, something which could actually be a professional liability in this hyper-religious, post 9/11 era of George W. Bush. At any rate, I think his collected series' showing that a sense of morality, of heroism and goodness need not necessarily derive from an "external authority"--like a conception of a god or deity (something he wanted to explore in Firefly, if it had it lasted)--is a welcome one. Buffy's metaphoric demons have always been vanquished by characters drawing on their own strengths...and of those around them. And, well, dang it, I just hope he gets that next, feisty slayer into her spandex to take up the good fight with her supporting crew of Scoobies on whatever network she finds her home...just as soon as possible.
Sorry to hear about Jack; I'll miss him on the board.
--Coop
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Posted: |
Mar 6, 2003 - 3:29 AM
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By: |
Cooper
(Member)
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Angel Spoilers follow:
4
3
2
1
Maybe it's appropriate that Faith resurfaces at a time when it feels like Angel is a series hellbent on derailing itself?
This last episode was a circus--which isn't always a bad thing--but I admit that I haven't had much of a sense of a coherent theme or story lately. "Coherency" isn't always a requirement, but the lack of it might have something to do with why I'm not sure how to feel about this one. A whole lot of sound and fury, a lot of mugging, snarling, posturing...but the various Beast-fuelled, Cordelia-Doppleganger-featuring, surprise pregnancy plot maneuverings have outpaced me. One solid scene of Wesley's dialog with the deceased Lyla seemed quietly out of place.
It's going to be hard to write for Faith. The sense of her being a damaged, remorseful hellion dedicated to personal reform was lost, replaced by the tough-talking dominatrix who likes to dive through windows. That's fun too, of course. And it's great to see her. But I remember the Faith from her last Buffy and Angel appearances where she'd become an affecting and sympathetic character whose violence packed a narcotic-like, addictive pull for her. Maybe they'll get to some of this...and they just want to show she can still kick some ass for the time being. In this epsisode, that's about all there was room for.
Well, I'll take another look at this one...see if it adds up to anything. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood. For now, though, my verdict on this one was that it was overstuffed, and a bit of a mess. I'm glad The Beast is gone; that thing can't hold a candle to Holtz as a Heavy...
--Coop
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There's a SLAYER in town and she's taken charge!
Wesley (to Faith, after she's slain two vamps): "Thought you could use a bit of release. Did it feel natural?"
Faith: "Just like ridin' a biker!"
Yes, Cooper, I think you were in a "bad mood." That rather makes you the Simon Cowell of the Buffy/Angel thread this week, huh! 
Actually, I thought Faith's return was refreshingly right and extremely well-written.
It has been a couple of years since Angel handed Faith her redemption. Yes, she was damaged, but she also faced, and begged for, death because she wanted to be stopped. Angel did the right thing. Faith has been healing. Yes, she's the hellion we remember. No, there's no remorse.
This is the first time we've seen her since then. She's not going to be that weepy and pitiful pathetic human we saw Angel rescue. I think we have a Faith whose very slayerness has healed her internally. Time will tell, of course, but the dialogue was snappy and crackling. She gave Connor a dose -- a sip, actually -- of what he needs desperately, some ass-kicking discipline. And he seemed to get off on it, too. And Faith can take a beating every bit as good as Buffy!
And kudos for that scene in the car after the breakout -- Faith's getting up-to-speed on all the "doin's" of the past couple of years including last year's birth of a now teenaged Connor. And the slaying workout was terrific. (By the way, they really need to get some fresh faces for vamps...I've spotted one or two who have already been staked and dusted on "Buffy").
Faith (to Gunn): "Gunn, right? Love the name. I hear you can handle yourself."
Gunn: "I hold my own."
Faith: (Looking him up and down)"That's a shame."
It's been a while since "Angel" made me laugh. And it took Faith to make that happen.
Connor (to Faith): "Vampire Slayers. I've heard about them. How come they're always girls?"
Faith: "Don't know. Just better at it, I guess."
Connor: (boastful) "You haven't seen what I can do."
Faith: (bored with him) "Let's not."
Since we know, via the grapevine, that Faith and Angel will make an appearance in the final episodes (that's plural because I've not seen a definitive statement as to which episode of the final five they will appear in) of "Buffy," we know that "Angel" will soon be returned to himself, although what will happen with Connor/Cordy is altogether of little interest to me at this point.
First, and to the point: That ain't Cordelia. I don't know why "Team Angel" can't see that, but maybe it's like Clark Kent/Superman. She has this look about her. Reminds me of Caroll Baker in the film "Kindergarten Cop" -- hardboiled, a bit overweight and mean deep down. "Cordy Impostor" was glaring at everything. (Has Charisma been reported to be pregnant? She's looking a tad chunky.)
Whoever it was who came back -- and for whatever purpose -- it wasn't Cordelia Chase, who loved Angel, who became a demon in order to continue being of use and receiving premonitions. Being the beast's master was one thing...becoming Angelus'(if I read the previews correctly) leaves me highly suspicious.
If for any reason the writers are determined that she IS Cordelia, I say there had better be a great plot twist to regain my willingness to suspend my disbelief.
Same for me about the pregnancy. It's all too hinky. The Cordy impostor saw how Connor reacted to Faith and got jealous.
I thought last night's episode was salvaged by Faith more than anything. Wesley had a great moment with Lila, no question, Cooper. But give it another look.
The music by Robert Kral was uniformly excellent throughout, I thought. Very good work.
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Posted: |
Mar 6, 2003 - 5:05 AM
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By: |
Cooper
(Member)
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Ron, you bet. I'm definitely going to run this one again.
Another way to describe my feelings about this ep was that it seemed sloppy. It probably wasn't, but I had trouble finding reasons not to at least wonder about that. In the not-so-great ones, a whole lot of stuff just seems to "happen" without anyone at the wheel, without any particular wit, craft, or indication that someone knows where we're headed. And a whole, whole lot of stuff just happened last night.
By contrast, last week's Buffy was insanely idiosyncratic, but I never lost that sense of purpose and direction...that it was all for something and that it all fit.
--Coop
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Oh, I agree. When "Angel" is good, it's great. And when it's just okay, it's all over the place.
But Faith -- for me -- steadied everything.
Yes, there are doubts...but "Faith" springs eternal!
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Posted: |
Mar 6, 2003 - 7:46 PM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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I was sort of fifty-fifty on Angel. I’ve never liked Faith much, but I found her return
rather refreshing. And I liked the fact that she supported Angel, “because he was the only
one who never gave up on me.” I figured she’d tried hard to not kill him. This
redemptive but still kick-butt Faith appealed to me.
At the same time, I was on plot twist overload. Just learned last week that Cordie was
bad, Faith returns, Beast is killed, Cordie now is “master,” Connor attracted to Faith,
Cordie pulls back Connor via fatherhood and so on. Little too much to digest in one
episode. Still I’m sssooooo hooked.
So when devil guy called Cordie “master” and when I know Faith and Angel will return
for Buffy’s last ep, I thought maybe Cordie was another incarnation of The First. But she
can be touched so that doesn’t work. So I’m curious about some of your speculations??
Is Cordie tied to The First? Are Sunnydale and L.A. experiencing two different villains?
Also, I remember during the first two episodes of Angel, we saw a ghostly Cordie
complaining in “the heavens” that she was very very “bored.” I’m assuming that Cordie is
still that lady stuck up “there.” And “what” is that baby? And who is daddy?
I’m having a hard time combining the total arc of Sunnydale and L.A. Even if I
speculated, I’d probably be very, very wrong.
How about Wesley? Wow, he has really evolved into a type of rugged leading hero.
Remember when he was Buffy’s watcher and lasted one mini second during the fight at
Buffy’s graduation from high school? And he whined in pain. Last night he really held his
own against two vampires. I’m thinking he will assume more of a leadership and leading
man type role next year. (Which may mean Whedon will kill him off this year because I’m
not expecting it. )
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Thread Maintenance...
Andy, hey, something I missed first time through in the last Angel:
Anyone else catch that a Bringer's blade was used in the attempt on Faith's life in the Slam? Nice touch.
--Coop
Ya know, it took a while before I realized your comment was directed at all of us and not to someone named "Andy" (and I was trying to remember anyone named Andy who had been posting to the thread).
At any rate, yeah...that blade stuck out like a sore thumb for me...and I think I recall Cordy saying something to the Beast about a mission that failed (that being to take out Faith).
Yes, there's some connection between the Cordy Impostor and The First -- there has to be -- Slayers just "ruin" their day.
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Posted: |
Mar 10, 2003 - 8:11 PM
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By: |
debi
(Member)
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Coop, I'm mostly with Ron on the last Angel ep, but, I will say that I thought there was a lot of action with little plot. I would have liked to have seen a bit more actual plot.
Having said that, I think Ron is right on in his comments about Faith. Time has passed, and it was some of the old "take no prisoners" getting off on the violence Faith, and yet, a different Faith. She's not going to kill Angel, and anybody who tries will deal with her--she made that abundantly clear. The old Faith was only too happy to off any vamp, didn't matter who. And it was also clear that she could have gotten out of that prison any time, and was obviously choosing to stay put & do her time.
Joan: I think, and this is only my opinion, that the connection between Buffy & Angel is mainly that with First Evil out & about, it's not just the Hellmouth that's heating up. First Evil being the root of all evil, means evility everywhere is getting all stirred up. And bolder. So they'll need to help shut First Evil down to take care of their "local" problem.
And some Beck news:
New projects:
"Under the Tuscan Sun" (Disney, same director as Guinevere, with Diane Lane)
"Cheaper By the Dozen" (with Steve Martin, same director as "Big Fat Liar)
Completed & to be released this year:
"Confidence" with Dustin Hoffman & Ed Burns
So at least we can get our Beck fix that way!
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