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This is a comments thread about FSM CD: Farewell, My Lovely/Monkey Shines
 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 1:29 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

FML was a score I had on vinyl ages ago. I played it. It grew on me. Now, David Shire is the voice of Marlowe. Couldn't imagine anyone else taking the lead on this one. If you haven't listened to the main title you've missed the coolest, laid back and smouldering intro to any private eye movie there's ever been. Mr Shire, come out wherever you are!

 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 1:40 PM   
 By:   Mr. Jack   (Member)

Fantastic double-feature album (I love the semi-improvised percussion and flute solos on the Monkey Shines portion).

 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 4:21 PM   
 By:   Timothy J. Phlaps   (Member)

I've listened to Monkey Shines a lot more than Farewell My Lovely. One of my favourite scores.

 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 7:01 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)

Can anyone direct me to a early detective or noir score that 'Farewell, My Lovely' is referencing.

I know scores like this, Chinatown, and Body heat are harkening back to earlier scores, but I don't know what or when.

 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 8:06 PM   
 By:   Mr. Jack   (Member)

To tell the truth, Chinatown really started the whole mistaken notion that all film noir scores feature sultry saxaphone/trumpet solos in every cue. Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music. But nowadays, every throwback to/parody of classic noir films always feature raspy sax licks.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 8:47 PM   
 By:   ANHaupt1337   (Member)

Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music.

Back then, Miklos Rozsa wrote pounding music that gave Noir its punch.

 
 Posted:   Apr 20, 2010 - 9:38 PM   
 By:   Lukas Kendall   (Member)

To tell the truth, Chinatown really started the whole mistaken notion that all film noir scores feature sultry saxaphone/trumpet solos in every cue. Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music. But nowadays, every throwback to/parody of classic noir films always feature raspy sax licks.

That is a great point. But did TV have any influence, Peter Gunn and such?

Lukas

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 1:20 AM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

To tell the truth, Chinatown really started the whole mistaken notion that all film noir scores feature sultry saxaphone/trumpet solos in every cue. Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music. But nowadays, every throwback to/parody of classic noir films always feature raspy sax licks.

That is a great point. But did TV have any influence, Peter Gunn and such?

Lukas


Certainly the early 40s noir films didn't use jazz scoring since that didn't become mainstream until the early 50s. For example, Steiner's "The Big Sleep" wasn't jazz oriented. I'll have to go back and listen to Paul Sawtell's efforts for such late 40s classics as "Raw Deal" and "T-Men" (both 1948). But in the 50s, my impression is that jazz idioms became more prevalent in noir scoring. The noir score that sticks out in my mind as being particularly jazzy is David Raksin's "The Big Combo" (1955). Scores for other major 50s noir films haven't registered with me as much as that one. I haven't seen "The Killers" (Gerald Fried) or The Big Heat" recently enough to recall their scores. The latter didn't even have a credited composer. Lukas' point regarding "Peter Gunn" is well taken, but 'Gunn" itself was probably influenced by Mancini's own "Touch of Evil" from earlier the same year.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 1:36 AM   
 By:   Preston Neal Jones   (Member)

THE PHANTOM LADY, directed by Robert Siodmak, had practically no score except main and end title. (Hans Salter tells a very funny story about this film and THE STRANGE AFFAIR OF UNCLE HARRY in my Cinefantastique interview, currently reprinted in Tom Weaver's book, "I Talked With a Zombie.") But the story is in large part about the jazz club milieu, so there's an important scene in which jazz is the source music -- with Elisha Cook, Jr. miming the drummer -- and it's very much foreground, not background music.

There's a wonderful couple of CD's whose titles and performers at the moment escape me, playing recent noir themes and 40's classics in the sultry saxophone mode.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 6:23 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

To tell the truth, Chinatown really started the whole mistaken notion that all film noir scores feature sultry saxaphone/trumpet solos in every cue. Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music. But nowadays, every throwback to/parody of classic noir films always feature raspy sax licks.

'Tis a curious thing indeed how today's popular perception of the classic forties private eye is colored with moody jazz music. Think "Guy Noir, Private Eye." In fact, I can't recall any such scoring in the classic noirs of the 1940s, as composed by Steiner, Deutsch, Rozsa, Salter, Waxman, Webb, et al. But the association certainly predates Chinatown. Lukas has mentioned sixties television shows. Did the French New Wave have something to do with this? I'm just now watching Le Doulos (1962), an obvious forties hommage that has a lot of slinky lounge jazz (vibraphones and the like). The subject was once raised at the Filmus-L list serve that Lukas is trying to archive. Somebody did point out a few jazz bits from the 1940s. But that style did not come to dominate until much later. It would be interesting to trace its evolution.

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 7:07 AM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

Somebody did point out a few jazz bits from the 1940s. But that style did not come to dominate until much later. It would be interesting to trace its evolution.

Jazz didn't really happen in film music until the early/mid 50s - brought to life by North and Bernstein, I suppose. But how about Raksin's The Big Combo from 1955? That's a film-noir classic with a fairly jazzy score too, featuring a soprano sax, I seem to remember.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 8:02 AM   
 By:   eriknelson   (Member)

Going back to the 40s era, the only jazz-like music that immediately comes to my mind is Alfred Newman's "Street Scene." But it's more Gershwinesque than sultry. I think he originally wrote it in the 30s.

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 8:03 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

To tell the truth, Chinatown really started the whole mistaken notion that all film noir scores feature sultry saxaphone/trumpet solos in every cue. Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music. But nowadays, every throwback to/parody of classic noir films always feature raspy sax licks.

'Tis a curious thing indeed how today's popular perception of the classic forties private eye is colored with moody jazz music. Think "Guy Noir, Private Eye." In fact, I can't recall any such scoring in the classic noirs of the 1940s, as composed by Steiner, Deutsch, Rozsa, Salter, Waxman, Webb, et al. But the association certainly predates Chinatown. Lukas has mentioned sixties television shows. Did the French New Wave have something to do with this? I'm just now watching Le Doulos (1962), an obvious forties hommage that has a lot of slinky lounge jazz (vibraphones and the like). The subject was once raised at the Filmus-L list serve that Lukas is trying to archive. Somebody did point out a few jazz bits from the 1940s. But that style did not come to dominate until much later. It would be interesting to trace its evolution.


The Jazz/Noir association is discussed in this thread, for anyone who's interested:

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=34493&forumID=1&archive=1

"Popular culture always portrays Film Noir as having a slow, smoky and Jazzy musical accompaniment, yet when watching 1940s Film Noirs, the music sounds totally the opposite, very loud, melodramatic and European. So when exactly did Jazz become associated with Film Noir? Was it a gradual "Americanization" seeing as many of the films were made in Hollywood by European directors and European composers who drew on their own classical backgrounds? And what was the first Noir to feature a Jazz-influenced score?"

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 8:04 AM   
 By:   Josh "Swashbuckler" Gizelt   (Member)

Did the French New Wave have something to do with this?

I believe that is strongly possible that they had an influence as well. They were, after all, very fascinated by American genre films and but often featured sultry, jazzy scores, such as Miles Davis' score to Louis Malle's Elevator to the Gallows (1958) or Marcel Solai's music for Jean-Luc Godard's Breathless (1960). Given the indelible impression both films make, this could easily have linked jazz with noir in the minds of the proponents of the neo-noir.

It would be an interesting parallel to the effect the sound of the Italian Western had on the American form of the genre.


Jazz didn't really happen in film music until the early/mid 50s - brought to life by North and Bernstein, I suppose. But how about Raksin's The Big Combo from 1955? That's a film-noir classic with a fairly jazzy score too, featuring a soprano sax, I seem to remember.

That sounds like something I'd like to check out. Is the movie on DVD?

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 12:28 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

To tell the truth, Chinatown really started the whole mistaken notion that all film noir scores feature sultry saxaphone/trumpet solos in every cue. Most of the classic noir pictures of the 40s and 50s rarely had a heavy jazz influence in the music. But nowadays, every throwback to/parody of classic noir films always feature raspy sax licks.

i have made the same point before (as have others).
all those painfully unfunny, unoriginal and innacurate 'maltese falconesque' parodies are
based on BODY HEAT & CHINATOWN
PETER GUNN and the like were usually much more uptempo; lacking the bluesy feel of the aforementioned

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 12:30 PM   
 By:   David (Giacchino-fan)   (Member)

I just got this CD for $8 and am patiently waiting for it to arrive so I can give it a spin.

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 12:34 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

Waxman had that bluesy feel on one of his scores- he might be the 'first' jazz guy

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 1:26 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

Jazz didn't really happen in film music until the early/mid 50s - brought to life by North and Bernstein, I suppose. But how about Raksin's The Big Combo from 1955? That's a film-noir classic with a fairly jazzy score too, featuring a soprano sax, I seem to remember.

That sounds like something I'd like to check out. Is the movie on DVD?


Several labels have released "The Big Combo" on DVD:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddvd&field-keywords=big+combo

 
 Posted:   Apr 21, 2010 - 3:03 PM   
 By:   DavidinBerkeley   (Member)


The Jazz/Noir association is discussed in this thread, for anyone who's interested:

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=34493&forumID=1&archive=1



I will borrow a point made by RcM in the thread above and proffer that radio played a role.

NIGHT BEAT (first broadcast in 1950) does have some of the feel of jazz in its scoring (listen to the first few minutes here): http://www.archive.org/download/NightBeat/Night_Beat_49_05_19_xxxx_The_Ted_Carter_Murder_Case_Audition.mp3

but not as strong as PETE KELLY'S BLUES

I'd have to push for PETE KELLY'S BLUES (1951) to be a more direct connection between the jazz stylings we're discussing and this genre. The title character is a jazz musician and the solo cornet heard in title writing is just like what you'd expect to hear along the lines we're discussing
(listen to the first few minutes of this episode): http://www.archive.org/download/PeteKellysBlues/pete_kellys_blues_510000_little_jake.mp3

PAT NOVAK, FOR HIRE in its 1949 episodes (earlier ones had organ scoring) had something of the same feel, though not so much of the solo writing (listen to the music after Jack Webb introduces his character): http://www.radiomickdanger.com/novak/FleetLady.mp3 (from http://www.radiomickdanger.com/ListShows2.php?seriesname=Pat%20Novak%20for%20Hire)

And it's occurring to me that this main-title-jazz-solo is just transferring the slow blues numbers usually performed in the nightclubs featured in the film to the spot under the titles, only as an instrumental.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 22, 2010 - 6:09 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

i have made the same point before (as have others). all those painfully unfunny, unoriginal and innacurate 'maltese falconesque' parodies are based on BODY HEAT & CHINATOWN

I can't cite a particular title, but my sense is that this particular stereotype was around long before CHINATOWN. I don't recall being surprised by the idiom of that score in 1974.

 
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