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Posted: |
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:31 PM
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By: |
OnyaBirri
(Member)
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Well, I can't really add to the discussion about the films, as I detest Hollywood musicals.
However, George and Ira were a great songwriting team. I think George's stature has become mildly bloated due to his pretensions as a "serious" composer. In reality, he is in the same league as Kern and Rodgers, and possibly not quite as great as either of those two. Granted, he sadly died far too early. Who knows what he may have done in the 1940s and 50s?
As with most songwriters of that era, the tunes in their original arrangements are unlistenable. They became great only after better arrangers, instrumentalists, and singers finally provided the appropriate settings for those wonderful melodies and lyrics.
The ultimate "Porgy and Bess" is of course the Miles Davis/Gil Evans arrangement. There is simply nothing that comes close, although Robert Farnon's instrumental suite from a London Phase 4 album is very nice. You can keep the vocal versions.
The five-LP Gerswhin songbook by Ella is sublime, and features some of Nelson Riddle's most inspired arrangements outside of Sinatra.
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In reality, he is in the same league as Kern and Rodgers, and possibly not quite as great as either of those two.
It's tempting to ask what you mean by "reality," but I'm satisfied that your first sentence says more than any of the rest of your post about your qualifications in this area.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 1:44 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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I disagree about the quality of the "original versions" - these would have been piano versions, of course. George's music for the piano, even if these ended in song form, were muscular and innovative and wonderful IMO. I'm sorry that you detest Hollywood musicals (you must be young!) because these represent amongst the very highest level of artistry in American film, IMO. Having studied the genre for nearly 50 years I feel entitled to suggest that Judy Garland was the most phenomenally gifted performer in the history of American motion pictures. No "ifs" or "buts".
The subject of arrangement and orchestration is a separate issue altogether, but no amount of arranging can disguise a mediocre tune - and Gershwin's were certainly not that. I'd just like to quote Saul Chaplin when he was asked to "arrange" Gershwin in a particular way for "An American in Paris":
"I regard Gershwin as Beethoven and you don't mess with Beethoven".
That's a good enough endorsement for me. When George went to Maurice Ravel in Paris to study orchestration Ravel said to him, "Why be a second rate Ravel when you can be a first rate Gershwin?" If it was good enough for Maurice Ravel.....
George is at the pinnacle of this art, but there wouldn't be more than a hair's breadth between the rest of them. It was George's opera "Porgy and Bess" (a total masterpiece) which elevated him to the status of one of the greatest American composers who ever lived - regardless of genre. Bernstein thought so; I think so. Michael Feinstein thinks so. You don't: sad for you.
We should thank the deity of choice every day for such music, whether performed by Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra or anybody else who can carry a tune.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 1:53 AM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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.....It is appalling to note that George died right in the middle of the making of "Shall We Dance".....
Just so we get the time frame correct here......
George Gershwin died in July of 1937.
SHALL WE DANCE had been completed and had been released before that date---in May of 1937.
By the time of his death, he had also completed DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released in November, 1937.
Addtionally, he had completed the songs "Love Walked In," "I Was Doing All Right," "I Love to Rhyme," and was partially through "Love Is Here to Stay"---which was finished with additional completion material by Vernon Duke---for THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES.
Samuel Goldwyn's GOLDWYN FOLLIES (released in February, 1938), was the last film to have a George Gershwin score written specifically for it, with the remaining songs and material primarily by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
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If I remember correctly, Duke's primary compositional chore on "Our Love is Here To Stay," was writing the melody for the song's verse ("The more I read the papers...") In addition to harmonizing (the song existed only as a half-comprehensible lead sheet), cleaning up, and completing "Our Love Is Here to Stay," (and besides his other work on "Goldwyn Follies") it was Vernon Duke who crafted and arranged the solo piano reduction of "Rhapsody in Blue" which is still in print and used to this day by pianists the world over. Gershwin asked Duke to put that together, and, since the two were close friends, Duke was happy to oblige. Gershwin would also introduce Duke to the Schillinger method.
Slightly off topic, but I often feel that Vernon Duke gets unfairly neglected - having spent a lot of time with his music the last three years, his skill as a composer in all fields is really quite remarkable - that he could go from writing oratorios of startling modernity to one of my all-time favorite songs, "I Can't Get Started," and keep moving between those two worlds so nimbly, makes him a real paragon of versatility - certainly up there with his friend Mr. Gershwin. A shame so much of his catalogue remains unrecorded or unavailable officially.
I do adore Gershwin's work for the concert hall and the theatre, and Tommy Krasker - with his work for Nonesuch, and his own label PS Classics - has been a great preserver of his theatre and film work with their various reconstructions (including two versions of "Strike Up the Band"). He seemed to have an unending gift for melodic phrases that could be immediately absorbed (and "An American in Paris" has enough melodies in it for two concert pieces - it's fascinating to compare the finished score against the original two-piano version, which has a moderate amount of material not used in the concert version. Also, it's worth noting that Ira Gershwin would later write lyrics to the lyrical-blues theme from that piece, which he, appropriately, I think, called "Home"). And, what's more, he's always fun to sit down at a piano to play.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 3:07 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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.....It is appalling to note that George died right in the middle of the making of "Shall We Dance".....
Just so we get the time frame correct here......
George Gershwin died in July of 1937.
SHALL WE DANCE had been completed and had been released before that date---in May of 1937.
By the time of his death, he had also completed DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released in November, 1937.
Addtionally, he had completed the songs "Love Walked In," "I Was Doing All Right," "I Love to Rhyme," and was partially through "Love Is Here to Stay"---which was finished with additional completion material by Vernon Duke---for THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES.
Samuel Goldwyn's GOLDWYN FOLLIES (released in February, 1938), was the last film to have a George Gershwin score written specifically for it, with the remaining songs and material primarily by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
That means all three books I've read on the subject of George Gershwin were wrong. The score for Goldwyn Follies had been written earlier, if I'm not mistaken.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 3:08 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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.....It is appalling to note that George died right in the middle of the making of "Shall We Dance".....
Just so we get the time frame correct here......
George Gershwin died in July of 1937.
SHALL WE DANCE had been completed and had been released before that date---in May of 1937.
By the time of his death, he had also completed DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released in November, 1937.
Addtionally, he had completed the songs "Love Walked In," "I Was Doing All Right," "I Love to Rhyme," and was partially through "Love Is Here to Stay"---which was finished with additional completion material by Vernon Duke---for THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES.
Samuel Goldwyn's GOLDWYN FOLLIES (released in February, 1938), was the last film to have a George Gershwin score written specifically for it, with the remaining songs and material primarily by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
That means all three books I've read on the subject of George Gershwin were wrong. The score for Goldwyn Follies had been written earlier, if I'm not mistaken. I'll have to go back and see what Edward Jablonski says in his biography.
(Why do I have to wait ages for my posting to appear on the message-board. It keeps saying "connecting" for ages, so that I'm tempted to just give up.)
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 3:08 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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.....It is appalling to note that George died right in the middle of the making of "Shall We Dance".....
Just so we get the time frame correct here......
George Gershwin died in July of 1937.
SHALL WE DANCE had been completed and had been released before that date---in May of 1937.
By the time of his death, he had also completed DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released in November, 1937.
Addtionally, he had completed the songs "Love Walked In," "I Was Doing All Right," "I Love to Rhyme," and was partially through "Love Is Here to Stay"---which was finished with additional completion material by Vernon Duke---for THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES.
Samuel Goldwyn's GOLDWYN FOLLIES (released in February, 1938), was the last film to have a George Gershwin score written specifically for it, with the remaining songs and material primarily by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
That means all three books I've read on the subject of George Gershwin were wrong. The score for Goldwyn Follies had been written earlier, if I'm not mistaken. I'll have to go back and see what Edward Jablonski says in his biography.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 3:08 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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.....It is appalling to note that George died right in the middle of the making of "Shall We Dance".....
Just so we get the time frame correct here......
George Gershwin died in July of 1937.
SHALL WE DANCE had been completed and had been released before that date---in May of 1937.
By the time of his death, he had also completed DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released in November, 1937.
Addtionally, he had completed the songs "Love Walked In," "I Was Doing All Right," "I Love to Rhyme," and was partially through "Love Is Here to Stay"---which was finished with additional completion material by Vernon Duke---for THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES.
Samuel Goldwyn's GOLDWYN FOLLIES (released in February, 1938), was the last film to have a George Gershwin score written specifically for it, with the remaining songs and material primarily by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
That means all three books I've read on the subject of George Gershwin were wrong. The score for Goldwyn Follies had been written earlier, if I'm not mistaken. I'll have to go back and see what Edward Jablonski says in his biography.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 3:08 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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.....It is appalling to note that George died right in the middle of the making of "Shall We Dance".....
Just so we get the time frame correct here......
George Gershwin died in July of 1937.
SHALL WE DANCE had been completed and had been released before that date---in May of 1937.
By the time of his death, he had also completed DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released in November, 1937.
Addtionally, he had completed the songs "Love Walked In," "I Was Doing All Right," "I Love to Rhyme," and was partially through "Love Is Here to Stay"---which was finished with additional completion material by Vernon Duke---for THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES.
Samuel Goldwyn's GOLDWYN FOLLIES (released in February, 1938), was the last film to have a George Gershwin score written specifically for it, with the remaining songs and material primarily by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
That means all three books I've read on the subject of George Gershwin were wrong. The score for Goldwyn Follies had been written earlier, if I'm not mistaken. I'll have to go back and see what Edward Jablonski says in his biography.
Also, I said earlier that Judy Garland was the most phenomenally gifted star in American pictures - I would have to include the incomparable Fred Astaire in that joint honour too!!
(Why do I have to wait ages for my posting to appear on the message-board. It keeps saying "connecting" for ages, so that I'm tempted to just give up.)
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 7:22 PM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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.....That means all three books I've read on the subject of George Gershwin were wrong. The score for Goldwyn Follies had been written earlier, if I'm not mistaken. I'll have to go back and see what Edward Jablonski says in his biography.....
In any case, you'll still be fighting the dates.
If Gershwin died in July, 1937, and SHALL WE DANCE was released in May, 1937, he couldn't have died during the making of the film.
If the score for GOLDWYN FOLLIES was written even earlier, why did Vernon Duke have to step in and finish it?
Where do you place DAMSEL IN DISTRESS, released at the end of 1937, into the composition line-up?
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 7:37 PM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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For the record.....here are the production dates of the films in question.....
SHALL WE DANCE
shooting December 24, 1936 to March 22, 1937
DAMSEL IN DISTRESS
shooting July 22, 1937 to October 16, 1937
THE GOLDWYN FOLLIES
shooting August 24, 1937 to November, 1937
It's obvious George Gershwin COULDN'T have died during the production of SHALL WE DANCE,
and it's also obvious that he died a few days before shooting on DAMSEL IN DISTRESS began, so he had to have completed that and his contributions to GOLDWYN FOLLIES by that time.
If DANCE came first (because it was released first), it probably was written in early-mid 1936, then DAMSEL had to come next, probably written in mid-late 1936, and FOLLIES last, likely early-mid-1937, because he couldn't complete it.
In the end, of course, when he wrote it doesn't matter. They're all wonderful scores. What does matter is that a life was cut short and was a life which probably would have produced many more iconic, melodic, and beautiful tunes we'd be talking about and playing even today.
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Posted: |
Jul 13, 2013 - 7:40 PM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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I didn't say he FINISHED the Follies before he died. In any case, it's something I've long believed because I had read that George died during the making of "Shall We Dance". Having read 3 books on the subject of George I'll go back and have another look. I'm away from home until next week and cannot check just now. Perhaps I read it somewhere else and attributed it to the three books. I have lots of film books so it could have been in any one of those.
Thanks for the heads up on this, though!! Whatever the case, George's death was a HUGE TRAGEDY for all of us generally and American culture specifically. And the sad anecdotes about the way George was mis-diagnosed and treated by Ira's wife before it was realized he was mortally ill made me want to weep.
I make a confession: since I was 15, when I first heard "Rhapsody in Blue" and when I became really aware of George through my pianist mother I really LOVED GEORGE. Seriously. Today I look at pictures of him, after years of reading about him and listening to his music, and they ALWAYS arouse in me the dearest, most tender sentiments. I cannot explain this, except to say that his music changed my life. I think it's possible to develop a great bond of affection with somebody by reading their biographies and learning all about him/her. This closeness developed with my husband and the composer Liszt when he read Walker's 3 tomes of biographical material about that composer. My husband learned what a great and philanthropic man Liszt was.
George Gershwin's music 'speaks' to me so personally. He was funny and bright and gay (when that word meant something) and one could never tell there was a Depression underway when listening to his music written during the late 20's and early 30's. But he could also be profound, "My Man's Gone Now". What a song of grief and loss!!
And, thanks to this wonderful technology, we have George's voice on this 1934 radio program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oglO8mmIPeY
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Posted: |
Jul 14, 2013 - 1:17 AM
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By: |
Regie
(Member)
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Thank you, Philip. It's so nice to be able to share these thoughts with intelligent, like-minded people. It's a little like being in love: you just HAVE to talk about the object of your affections, in this case George. And, by extension, Kern, Rodgers & Hart/Hammerstein, Porter, Berlin, Arlen, Sondheim and, yes, Bernstein. These are the creme de la creme!!
'Life upon the wicked stage', aye?
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Posted: |
Jul 14, 2013 - 3:41 AM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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I'm a little late joining the party re: love for the Gershwins' music & lyrics.
Oh, I've had many favourites for many years, usually songs performed by Frank Sinatra with Someone to Watch Over Me probably being at the top of that list. Harry James' recording of The Man I Love is pretty high, too. But compared with the other Hollywood composers and writers (and those who pre-dated such creative artists) I suppose I've always placed their works, as a body, lower down my overall list.
This is partly to do with GG's more serious side ... I know there are some who do not consider him worthy of the classical music tab but if labels such as Decca, Philipps, EMI, DG, RCA, etc. are happy to promote such works I'm happy to consider him one of the contributors to that wonderful world ... just as much as to the world of the American SongBook.
And as my love for classical music has grown so I now appreciate his works in this field so much more. I've enjoyed his Rhapsody in Blue for a long time (I now have 4 different recordings) and have added a compilation of his works in recent months. I still have to get his Piano Concerto in F - orchestral recording - to complement the Version for Two Pianos which I greatly enjoy. But with a collection of songs by artists such as Doris Day, Alma Cogan, Bing Crosby, Matt Monro, Ella Fitgerald, Jack Jones, et al. I'm a happy listener.
Mitch.
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Posted: |
Jul 14, 2013 - 8:48 AM
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By: |
lexedo
(Member)
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George and Ira brought joy to many many millions - they're an American treasure through and through. Sometimes, the old school jazzers and the classicists get down on the Gershwins, but they think about music from a different perspective. The real treat is watching Lenny conduct American in Paris; he loved George and his music, and it is completely obvious. Just about every "great" American conductor goes through a Gershwin phase at some point during their career (e.g., Fiedler - Boston, MTT - SF, Levine - Met, Slatkin - St. Louis, Previn - Pitt, Lenny - NYP, Ozawa - SF, Gilbert - NYP, etc.), and right now, I am going back through Michael Tilson Thomas' Gershwin material with the Buffalo SO.
I enjoy everything they've ever written. This AM, I am into "I'll Build A Staircase to Paradise" - it gets me every time. I also like the Elle/Gershwin box-set very much, but I think I prefer her Cole Porter set a bit more.
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