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 Posted:   Aug 11, 2013 - 4:27 PM   
 By:   musicpaladin2007   (Member)

Got mine on Friday and have been thoroughly enjoying the remastered tracks & previously unreleased cues. Lots of little surprises to discover in this score, which I had dismissed years ago based on the OST. Reassessing this one has been fun! Thanks to all involved. smile

Agreed, I'm discovering a few small things I had just never noticed. For instance, how the liner notes state that Ba'ku village contains a reference to Goldsmith's low strings/low brass descending 3rd Starfleet theme all the way back from ST:TMP.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 12, 2013 - 6:45 PM   
 By:   lepedidus   (Member)

I didn't know how much I loved this score until this expansion. I think it's my second favorite Goldsmith Trek score. Crazy talk I know, but in many ways it's so much more cohesive and listenable than Final Frontier. The Motion Picture is his masterpiece and this doesn't come close but it sure is nice.

And speaking of The Motion Picture -- is the big action finish of The Healing Process (Original Version) Ilia's Theme in disguise? Sounds like it. Never noticed that before!

 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 6:29 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

Agreed, I'm discovering a few small things I had just never noticed. For instance, how the liner notes state that Ba'ku village contains a reference to Goldsmith's low strings/low brass descending 3rd Starfleet theme all the way back from ST:TMP.

I'm not sure I agree with that. They're similar, but it's also a pretty "Goldsmithian" rhythm. You can find similar in Explorers.

I haven't read the notes (or bought the CD) but do they mention the history of what I call the "B theme"? It's the theme that opens "A Busy Man" in ST V. It became a Starfleet theme in First Contact (you hear it in the middle of the Courage theme at the opening of FC), it's the base of the love theme in Insurrection, and I think it's the Riker / Picard theme in Nemesis. I always thought that Goldsmith used this theme to replace his mission theme from TMP.

It may be that everyone already knows this.

I may have to catch up and get the TNG CDs. Maybe Christmas.

 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 11:40 AM   
 By:   Wedge   (Member)

Agreed, I'm discovering a few small things I had just never noticed. For instance, how the liner notes state that Ba'ku village contains a reference to Goldsmith's low strings/low brass descending 3rd Starfleet theme all the way back from ST:TMP.

I'm not sure I agree with that. They're similar, but it's also a pretty "Goldsmithian" rhythm. You can find similar in Explorers.


I believe my exact phrasing was that the passage "distantly recalls" the Federation theme, in addition to the conspiracy motif from CAPRICORN ONE. It was not my intention to suggest that he quotes the motif specifically.

And yes, the connection between the "Busy Man" theme (called the "Quest motive" in this series of releases) and the Insurrection love theme is definitely pointed out!

 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 11:52 AM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

Does "New Sight" on the new GNP release still have the action bit at the end of it? I only have the film on an old VHS and I have no VHS player anymore, so I'm not able to check if that was different in the film.

Oh, how I'd love that cue without that action ending.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 11:53 AM   
 By:   captain_avis   (Member)

Agreed, I'm discovering a few small things I had just never noticed. For instance, how the liner notes state that Ba'ku village contains a reference to Goldsmith's low strings/low brass descending 3rd Starfleet theme all the way back from ST:TMP.

I'm not sure I agree with that. They're similar, but it's also a pretty "Goldsmithian" rhythm. You can find similar in Explorers.


I believe my exact phrasing was that the passage "distantly recalls" the Federation theme, in addition to the conspiracy motif from CAPRICORN ONE. It was not my intention to suggest that he quotes the motif specifically.

And yes, the connection between the "Busy Man" theme (called the "Quest motive" in this series of releases) and the Insurrection love theme is definitely pointed out!


On the other hand, Goldsmith does quote the Federation Theme in Star Trek Nemesis, although not on any of the cues on the Varese release which is a pity!

Chris

 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 12:39 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

I believe my exact phrasing was that the passage "distantly recalls" the Federation theme, in addition to the conspiracy motif from CAPRICORN ONE. It was not my intention to suggest that he quotes the motif specifically.

And yes, the connection between the "Busy Man" theme (called the "Quest motive" in this series of releases) and the Insurrection love theme is definitely pointed out!


Awesome! Thanks! I always loved how Goldsmith repurposed this theme from film to film. By the time of Nemesis I was wondering where it would show up before I saw the film.

Then the expanded TMP score FINALLY came out (the one from ’99) and I realized that he had used a similar device there, he had just simplified it from STV on.

On the other hand, Goldsmith does quote the Federation Theme in Star Trek Nemesis, although not on any of the cues on the Varese release which is a pity!

Chris


Interesting. Where?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 4:26 PM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

Does "New Sight" on the new GNP release still have the action bit at the end of it? I only have the film on an old VHS and I have no VHS player anymore, so I'm not able to check if that was different in the film.

Oh, how I'd love that cue without that action ending.


I wouldn't call it "action" but yes it does. It's how JG intended the cue to end, on the cut to the ships, thou it's dialled out of the film itself.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 4:33 PM   
 By:   captain_avis   (Member)

On the other hand, Goldsmith does quote the Federation Theme in Star Trek Nemesis, although not on any of the cues on the Varese release which is a pity!

Chris


Interesting. Where?

Oh God, don't make me rewatch the awful film to tell you! I watched that film too many times to try to appreciate Jerry's score and now the awfulness of the film has tainted the score for me. If memory serves, there's a prominent statement in the film right when a shuttle leaves the Enterprise to investigate a planet where they find bits of Data's brother. It's right before the dune buggy chase sequence. I think there's a second statement elsewhere in the film, but my memory is foggy.

Chris.

 
 Posted:   Aug 13, 2013 - 7:01 PM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

What would we be calling The Federation Theme? Where would it be in TMP? All I can think of is the main theme. frown

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 4:34 AM   
 By:   patrick_runkle   (Member)

One of the distinguishing features of Insurrection is its recording engineering... the score has a much "wetter" sound than any of Goldsmith's other Trek scores. The electronics also seem to share this wet, reverby sound which has led me to wonder if they were played live along with the orchestra. Anyone know if this was the case? I know Jerry did this with some of his very early scores with electronics, but didn't think this was the case for the later scores.

Chris.


I was just about to post the same thing when I found this post. My speculative guess about this is that Goldsmith, especially in the later years, may have been more fond of a "concert hall" type sound like that heard on classical recordings as opposed to the typically dry sound achieved in L.A. orchestral stages. (Note Botnick complaining in the "One Little Indian" liner notes that the sound on the Disney stage was "dry as a bone.") This is nearly the exact sound of the LSO Telarc Goldsmith recordings also. Also maybe Paramount's stage was boomy compared to the other stages, because I don't think he recorded much stuff there except for the later Trek scores. First Contact is wet enough, but Insurrection goes over the edge such that some of the orchestral parts just lack definition to my ears. I think the new mastering helps bring a little more crispness than the old CD.

And as to the content, the expansion is an essential purchase. My criticism of the old CD was that the score had little room to breathe--it was either this very tender, fantastic pastoral stuff or it was fierce 90s Goldsmith action. The expansion solves the problem by revealing that some of the other little bits add a lot of color to the score. And I've never liked the action in Insurrection as much as the more subdued bits, where I think he wrote two of his absolute best "tender" melodies ever--the Ba'ku village theme and the love theme.

 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 4:47 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

Double Post

 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 4:47 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)



And yes, the connection between the "Busy Man" theme (called the "Quest motive" in this series of releases) and the Insurrection love theme is definitely pointed out!


I always thought there was a connection between the Quest theme and the Insurrection theme.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 5:00 AM   
 By:   Matt S.   (Member)

What would we be calling The Federation Theme? Where would it be in TMP? All I can think of is the main theme. frown

It's that chugging figure in the low strings (I think the LLL liners call it a "pumping motive")...most easily heard at the outset of "The Enterprise." I remember hearing it in the Nemesis score, but not sure which scene...an earlier one for sure, probably underscoring a shot of the Enterprise-E.

 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 6:14 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

What would we be calling The Federation Theme? Where would it be in TMP? All I can think of is the main theme. frown

It's that chugging figure in the low strings (I think the LLL liners call it a "pumping motive")...most easily heard at the outset of "The Enterprise." I remember hearing it in the Nemesis score, but not sure which scene...an earlier one for sure, probably underscoring a shot of the Enterprise-E.


To go further into the weeds with some more examples: it opens Leaving Drydock with really low piano and is then mixed in with the main theme with some really ballsy brass at 1:32. It can be heard on muted horns at 0:22 into The Force Field. And of course it closes the movie after the Enterprise warps away and is heard under the star field and the card "The human adventure is just beginning."

AND Ron Jones did a pretty nice homage to it on the first Star Fleet Command game for his Federation theme.

I think I noticed Goldsmith using that "wet" sound (I never knew to call it that) as early as Final Frontier. Even Secret of NIMH sounds wetter than, say, Raiders of the Lost Ark or E.T. I always kind of thought of it as part of the Goldsmith sound. Frontiers takes this to 11.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 7:23 AM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

Don't have the liner note with me but was Insurrection recorded on the, then new, Newman recording stage? I know Small Soldiers was also recorded there earlier that year and that score has a similar acoustic quality.

 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 3:03 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

Got mine today and man, there's just nothing better than listening to a newly remastered / expanded Goldsmith score for the first time. Taking in all those new and extended tracks you thought you knew so well. Few things make me feel this happy or inspired.
I've had the old album since it came out and this new version blows it away. That low-end piano is much more prominent now and I don't have to crank up my stereo just to hear it like I used to. The synths also have much more color and seem to "pop" more.

Lots of these cues sound completely new to me. The new mix is incredible and hearing all these alternate cues and "new" tracks just makes me miss Goldsmith even more.

The fluttering woodwind and strings in place of the synth in those last few moments of "Ba'ku Village (alternate ending)" are absolutely sublime. I was not expecting that. Just those 5 seconds of unused music (around 2:58) absolutely blow away anything heard in films today.

I can't say enough good things about this remastered and expanded set. This is what we should have had back then.

It only makes me sad listening to it and knowing that we will never hear music of Goldsmith's calibre ever again.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 8:04 PM   
 By:   musicpaladin2007   (Member)

Don't have the liner note with me but was Insurrection recorded on the, then new, Newman recording stage? I know Small Soldiers was also recorded there earlier that year and that score has a similar acoustic quality.

Pretty sure it was recorded on Paramount Stage M and that the acoustic quality is more the mix and post reverb than the stage... there are other productions recorded there that are quite dry.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 14, 2013 - 8:13 PM   
 By:   musicpaladin2007   (Member)

Also as to the question of where the federation motif shows up in Nemesis, it's the scene that starts on the bridge where Picard orders the away team on the shuttle to the planet just before the big fanfare statement that accompanies the shuttle actually leaving.

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 7:14 AM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

Anyone else madly in love with the revised "healing process"? I can't get enough of that track, love the transitions, that beautiful trumpet leading into the climatic part, for some reason that reminds me a lot of his 'hollow man' finale. I always felt the original version of "healing process" was a bit of a dud compared to the action material that preceded it on the album, and Goldsmith's repeating synth loop building up to the choir 'awe' (the rejected shrinkage of Ruafu) was a bit on the uneventful side for me; the revised version however, though it has its share of filler bars, matches the excitement and intensity of the earlier 'Not Functioning' and 'Drones Attack' and tops it with that beautiful finale! I can't stop listening to it smile

 
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