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 Posted:   Jun 13, 2013 - 10:25 PM   
 By:   Josh   (Member)

I do like the theme and feel that treated to a more orchestral setting it can be mythic and interesting.

My orchestral arrangement:

http://snd.sc/12rXhCJ

(I only spent an hour on this so it needs a little cleaning up).



A definite improvement in my opinion.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 2:21 AM   
 By:   Mike West   (Member)

A small breakdown of what Zimmer calls Superman's theme (What are you going to do when you....)

The piano theme in C major starting with a fifth (like Strauss Also sprach.... and Williams theme)
is a nice and well crafted theme, capturing the naivity and innocence of the young Clark.
I like that, though I like the catchier trailer version better because the third and fourth note just in the long version feel redundant, the twist in the trailer when after the leap to the fifth the fourth and then the grounding tonic again appears in a dotted rhythm before the third comes which ends that first phrase, this works much better because it is more catchy.
And unfortunately there is no development leading to that theme. There are a few literal statements of it before that final statements in the very same way.

After that the ostinato appears which is nice, though it is just like one bar repeating endlessly (with like two fill-in ideas added sometimes), but I like it and the energy of it. The ten drum sets are not necessary to get that sound and are nothing more than a blinding stunt to do something which noone has done before.

Then there are some leaps from tonic to several diatonic scale notes which sound like intonation-exercises or pitch-finding-exercises for violin- or clarinetplayers or singers or whatever: a fifth interval, a sixth-interval, a fourth-interval.
This really can be found in books which teach to learn singing or playing violin from the 17th and 18th centuy, literally!
So, sorry that I am educated in musics and just can't take this too serious. Of course Zimmer can't know this.
Diatonic improvisation to be generated in 2 minutes.

Then the seventh appears in that diatonic-steps in major mode exercise and now two interesting chords appear:
A-flat major and B-flat major. That's a great build-up for my taste. And Williams by the way uses the same chords in
The gloriously ending of his superman fanfare which opens his march.
Unfortunately I am musically educated, and when Zimmer reaches that chord in the very first track of the album, the choir starts to do a warm up with german vowels a e i o u. This is taking me out immediately, sounds silly to me. Why german vowels, for Kryptonn heritage? Of course Zimmer does not know choirs use this as warm-up all the time.

Ok, and now there are those four chords as a turn-around:
C major, A-flat major above E-flat, F major and again A-flat major above E-flat
I like that very much, it sounds inspired! There is a fanfaric short motif G-E-G-Aflat rushing to the second chord sometimes and a great fill-in from the drums in the second half of the turn-around.

So, when this appeared in the trailer I thought they edited it to the sequence of pictures, but it is really just repeating over and over again like 20 times with no remarkable change to it.

So this is the musical substance of that what is called Superman's theme.
I mean the second half of that track is four bars!!

I like the four bars, and I am not a Zimmer hater, but I hope I was able to account for why this track (as an example for the entire score) is disapointed because of lack of musical elaboration, knowledge and Inspiration.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 2:27 AM   
 By:   bondo321   (Member)

Did you just miss (or ignore) the last 20 years of Zimmer's simple-yet-effective scoring method?

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 2:30 AM   
 By:   Mike West   (Member)

Did you just miss (or ignore) the last 20 years of Zimmer's simple-yet-effective scoring method?

He was not that simple all the time in the last 20years and sometimes simple is effective, sometimes it is not.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 2:41 AM   
 By:   Mike West   (Member)

I do like the theme and feel that treated to a more orchestral setting it can be mythic and interesting.

My orchestral arrangement:

http://snd.sc/12rXhCJ

(I only spent an hour on this so it needs a little cleaning up).


Great David! Way better with the counterpoint-lines!
And even that mock-up sound feels not really inferior to the wall of plasic from the original.

Still, where is the melodic countur in the glorious chords except for the four notes which are essentially a Goldsmith-coloured version of Giacchino's Spock's theme (the fourth note being altered a half-step-down, it actually does appear in the epilog of star trek like this!)

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 2:57 AM   
 By:   bondo321   (Member)

sometimes simple is effective, sometimes it is not.


Absolutely agreed 100%. And in the case of Superman, a very simple superhero, it's very effective. Kaya Savas review was spot-on.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 3:11 AM   
 By:   Mike West   (Member)

sometimes simple is effective, sometimes it is not.


Absolutely agreed 100%. And in the case of Superman, a very simple superhero, it's very effective. Kaya Savas review was spot-on.


Agreed partly, Bondo.

Sometimes music on it's own can be simple and effective.
MOS is not, probably in context yes.

And in the past films like this were media to allow skilled composers create music which stands on it's own, simple or not.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 3:50 AM   
 By:   The REAL BJBien   (Member)

Music fit the film like a glove!

The theme very much grew on me with all its variations.

However, the film is MASSIVELY flawed and rather sloppy; it brings the spectacle and the last hour and thirty minutes are huge but it lakes so much story wise.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 4:14 AM   
 By:   Mike West   (Member)



The theme very much grew on me with all its variations.



Which variations?

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 4:27 AM   
 By:   Mike West   (Member)

Well I am far from a Zimmer-hater and feel offended by being accused of being one.
But as everyone here has the right to like that I have the right to dislike it.

The choir keeps singing the german vowels in alphabetic order "a e i o u" and that's a pretty good illustration of the musical substance, it's just some elementary assembly of very basic musical grammar.
You can like it, but don't put everone in the same can who does not like it.


I think it's a sample that switches vowels using a modulation wheel midi message. I have a patch like it from Spectrasonics Omnisphere.

Mike what did you think of that spiccato triplet figure section at the end of track 1? I actually like it a lot because it modulates through key centres- something very atypical of Zimmer.

I had a listen to the score again and I'm appreciating it for what it is. I think it is more melodic that his Dark Knight material but in a slightly de constructed way. It's nowhere near the musical juggernaut that is Williams' Superman but it fits in its own sonic universe. I don't recall any of Snyder's films having really strong melodic scores so we can probably thank him partially for this.

Fact is, I don't think most of us would have been happy with any score that Zimmer or anyone else would have turned out except perhaps for a post '90s John Williams (think AI meets War of the Worlds or Minority Report).


David, I like that figure, it is among the few ideas which could be the backbones of a good entire score.

You know like "Terraforming", great dynamic rhythms and cool van-halen-chords, again an inspired musical szenario.
But after two minutes or so, terrible clumsy motifs combined as layers in such a dull way, I mean come on, you can improvise and hack it into the computer in a couple of minutes. I think this cannot be serious. This is a huge empty bubble accepted by producers and directors and audiences, but still it is really is a huge empty bubble. It is impressive that Zimmer moved himself in such a position from where
he can set this kind of standards, really remarkable. It is sad for the musical substance in film scoring and for spoiling musical taste in the long term.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 4:58 AM   
 By:   mastadge   (Member)

Kaya Savas review was spot-on.

Maybe, except for the assertion right at the beginning that music is "one of those things that is unique to us as a species". Clearly Kaya Savas has not seen Star Trek IV! Or heard birdsong!

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 5:14 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

David Arnold or Michael Giacchino would have made a far better score. But Snyder wants that "music that sounds like not-music" sound that Zimmer makes.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 5:52 AM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

Kaya Savas review was spot-on.

Maybe, except for the assertion right at the beginning that music is "one of those things that is unique to us as a species". Clearly Kaya Savas has not seen Star Trek IV! Or heard birdsong!


Well, birds and whales, to use your examples, make those sounds because that's how they communicate. It's their way of "talking." Humans make music as an art form, out of passion, not out of necessity or to chat. Well, not anymore, anyway.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 5:54 AM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

David Arnold or Michael Giacchino would have made a far better score. But Snyder wants that "music that sounds like not-music" sound that Zimmer makes.

Oh, believe me, if David Arnold did this score, there would be plenty of bitching. Less with Giacchino, but it would exist. There is no way at all everyone would be happy with any music coming out of this film. This is who we are.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 6:23 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

David Arnold or Michael Giacchino would have made a far better score. But Snyder wants that "music that sounds like not-music" sound that Zimmer makes.

Oh, believe me, if David Arnold did this score, there would be plenty of bitching. Less with Giacchino, but it would exist. There is no way at all everyone would be happy with any music coming out of this film. This is who we are.


Yeah, it is just discourse though, that is okay. I mean throughout history people disagreed about art. That is okay.

Personally I would love a score by either of these guys for this picture, or even McNeely. Any of these over the Z

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 8:56 AM   
 By:   Reeve   (Member)

We all know that a "big" name composer wouldn't do this score.

I knew John Williams wouldn't be asked, so -

I was hoping that DANNY ELFMAN might be offered the job.

Sadly, he wasn't.

James Horner's "The Amazing Spider - Man" score wasn't that great.

But, even so - his work is a thousand times better than this.

.... Michael Giacchino scoring Man of Steel - yep - He has strong themes in Star Trek. I guess he would have done the score the Justice it deserves.

Look, Zack Snyder is not your classic director! Just watch him in those interviews. All those Tattoos!

What does he know about a Symphony Orchestra!?

What does 95% of the teenage population know about a Symphony Orchestra?

He is out to please them!

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 9:14 AM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

A small breakdown of what Zimmer calls Superman's theme (What are you going to do when you....)

The piano theme in C major starting with a fifth (like Strauss Also sprach.... and Williams theme)
is a nice and well crafted theme, capturing the naivity and innocence of the young Clark.
I like that, though I like the catchier trailer version better because the third and fourth note just in the long version feel redundant, the twist in the trailer when after the leap to the fifth the fourth and then the grounding tonic again appears in a dotted rhythm before the third comes which ends that first phrase, this works much better because it is more catchy.
And unfortunately there is no development leading to that theme. There are a few literal statements of it before that final statements in the very same way.

After that the ostinato appears which is nice, though it is just like one bar repeating endlessly (with like two fill-in ideas added sometimes), but I like it and the energy of it. The ten drum sets are not necessary to get that sound and are nothing more than a blinding stunt to do something which noone has done before.

Then there are some leaps from tonic to several diatonic scale notes which sound like intonation-exercises or pitch-finding-exercises for violin- or clarinetplayers or singers or whatever: a fifth interval, a sixth-interval, a fourth-interval.
This really can be found in books which teach to learn singing or playing violin from the 17th and 18th centuy, literally!
So, sorry that I am educated in musics and just can't take this too serious. Of course Zimmer can't know this.
Diatonic improvisation to be generated in 2 minutes.

Then the seventh appears in that diatonic-steps in major mode exercise and now two interesting chords appear:
A-flat major and B-flat major. That's a great build-up for my taste. And Williams by the way uses the same chords in
The gloriously ending of his superman fanfare which opens his march.
Unfortunately I am musically educated, and when Zimmer reaches that chord in the very first track of the album, the choir starts to do a warm up with german vowels a e i o u. This is taking me out immediately, sounds silly to me. Why german vowels, for Kryptonn heritage? Of course Zimmer does not know choirs use this as warm-up all the time.

Ok, and now there are those four chords as a turn-around:
C major, A-flat major above E-flat, F major and again A-flat major above E-flat
I like that very much, it sounds inspired! There is a fanfaric short motif G-E-G-Aflat rushing to the second chord sometimes and a great fill-in from the drums in the second half of the turn-around.

So, when this appeared in the trailer I thought they edited it to the sequence of pictures, but it is really just repeating over and over again like 20 times with no remarkable change to it.

So this is the musical substance of that what is called Superman's theme.
I mean the second half of that track is four bars!!

I like the four bars, and I am not a Zimmer hater, but I hope I was able to account for why this track (as an example for the entire score) is disapointed because of lack of musical elaboration, knowledge and Inspiration.


Great analysis!

It is nice to see someone who knows music destroying this travesty of a composer.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 9:49 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

A small breakdown of what Zimmer calls Superman's theme (What are you going to do when you....)

...

So, sorry that I am educated in musics and just can't take this too serious. Of course Zimmer can't know this.
Diatonic improvisation to be generated in 2 minutes.

...

Unfortunately I am musically educated, and when Zimmer reaches that chord in the very first track of the album, the choir starts to do a warm up with german vowels a e i o u. This is taking me out immediately, sounds silly to me. Why german vowels, for Kryptonn heritage? Of course Zimmer does not know choirs use this as warm-up all the time.

...

I like the four bars, and I am not a Zimmer hater, but I hope I was able to account for why this track (as an example for the entire score) is disapointed because of lack of musical elaboration, knowledge and Inspiration.


Nice analysis. But why are you making the assumption that Zimmer CANNOT know these thing? That's a leap. Do you do the same thing with Danny Elfman? Or any other composers who are not classically trained?

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 9:52 AM   
 By:   The REAL BJBien   (Member)

We all know that a "big" name composer wouldn't do this score.

I knew John Williams wouldn't be asked, so -

I was hoping that DANNY ELFMAN might be offered the job.

Sadly, he wasn't.

James Horner's "The Amazing Spider - Man" score wasn't that great.

But, even so - his work is a thousand times better than this.

.... Michael Giacchino scoring Man of Steel - yep - He has strong themes in Star Trek. I guess he would have done the score the Justice it deserves.

Look, Zack Snyder is not your classic director! Just watch him in those interviews. All those Tattoos!

What does he know about a Symphony Orchestra!?

What does 95% of the teenage population know about a Symphony Orchestra?

He is out to please them!


You lost me at tattoos...what has that got to do with anything? He is also quiet muscular! Are these bad things for a visual storyteller to have or are all story tellers not allowed to be tattooed?

What about drugs? Where do you draw the line?

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2013 - 9:52 AM   
 By:   The REAL BJBien   (Member)

We all know that a "big" name composer wouldn't do this score.

I knew John Williams wouldn't be asked, so -

I was hoping that DANNY ELFMAN might be offered the job.

Sadly, he wasn't.

James Horner's "The Amazing Spider - Man" score wasn't that great.

But, even so - his work is a thousand times better than this.

.... Michael Giacchino scoring Man of Steel - yep - He has strong themes in Star Trek. I guess he would have done the score the Justice it deserves.

Look, Zack Snyder is not your classic director! Just watch him in those interviews. All those Tattoos!

What does he know about a Symphony Orchestra!?

What does 95% of the teenage population know about a Symphony Orchestra?

He is out to please them!


You lost me at tattoos...what has that got to do with anything? He is also quiet muscular! Are these bad things for a visual storyteller to have or are all story tellers not allowed to be tattooed?

What about drugs? Where do you draw the line?

 
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