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 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 11:53 AM   
 By:   Michael24   (Member)

The orignal, unused "Sail Barge Assault" just doesn't sound LSO-y or STAR WARS-y enough to me. In other words, it sounds like a rerecording. I like that bolder, fuller sound the film version has.

I agree. The unused "Sail Barge Assault" is a fine track in and of itself, and it's neat that it's been released. But I prefer the film version because, to me, it just has a much more Star Wars-y sound to it than the original track.

 
 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 1:52 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

So the Rebel Theme is used

SW
Imperial Attack
Inner City
Ben's Death and TIE Fighter Attack (obviously)
End Titles

ESB
When the ion cannon fires -- wow, that's it?

ROTJ
Sail Barge
Death Star
End Titles

That's not much, is it? Still way more than Luke and Leia. smile

 
 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 4:26 PM   
 By:   Josh "Swashbuckler" Gizelt   (Member)

The (highly recommended) Star Wars radio show also usually used the Rebel fanfare as the Imperial theme.

 
 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 4:49 PM   
 By:   The Shape (Steve H)   (Member)

The fanfare is also used at the end of It's A Trap as the rebels engage the Imperial fleet.

 
 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 6:29 PM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

The (highly recommended) Star Wars radio show also usually used the Rebel fanfare as the Imperial theme.

I rest my case. big grin

 
 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 7:32 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

The fanfare is also used at the end of It's A Trap as the rebels engage the Imperial fleet.

Forgot that one. Any others?

Is it really only used that one time in ESB?

 
 Posted:   May 21, 2013 - 9:11 PM   
 By:   Sigerson Holmes   (Member)

The (highly recommended) Star Wars radio show also usually used the Rebel fanfare as the Imperial theme.

I rest my case. big grin



So you prefer the opinion of the music editor on the radio adaptation over the composer's own expressed intentions? Williams did compose a Vader/Imperial motif for Episode IV (true, not as long, showy or memorable as his march from Episode V, and I don't think he ever revisited it, did he?).


How can you hear its use at 1:41 in this clip, when Luke starts swingin' his big green thing around, and think this music signifies anything but "Luke Mows 'Em Down!"?

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 5:37 AM   
 By:   Josh "Swashbuckler" Gizelt   (Member)

The theme was composed for the Rebels, and in the films is pretty consistently only applied to them.

I only brought up the radio show because it is a possible source for the misconception about the theme. It was probably repurposed for that show because there were more useful dramatic variations on that theme than on the Imperial motif heard in Star Wars (a limitation that may have played a role in Williams' development of the more versatile Imperial March for the sequel).

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 8:55 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

So you prefer the opinion of the music editor on the radio adaptation over the composer's own expressed intentions?

Yes! wink Seriously I don't dispute the original intent of the music. It's apparently written in stone, so to speak. But I never read the music the way it was intended. I just find it interesting that someone else also thought it represented an "Imperial Attack" theme. That tells me in this case, the creatives were a little off with their messaging.

 
 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 9:56 AM   
 By:   Matt S.   (Member)

So you prefer the opinion of the music editor on the radio adaptation over the composer's own expressed intentions?

Yes! wink Seriously I don't dispute the original intent of the music. It's apparently written in stone, so to speak. But I never read the music the way it was intended. I just find it interesting that someone else also thought it represented an "Imperial Attack" theme. That tells me in this case, the creatives were a little off with their messaging.


It's also important to remember that not every leitmotif is used so strictly that it ONLY appears when its subject is doing something onscreen. Most obvious is the rendition of Leia's theme as Obi-wan is cut down by Vader.

I never really thought about it before, but it is easy to see the Rebel Fanfare as an Imperial theme, especially in the scene where the Falcon is grabbed by the Death Star's tractor beam. Williams used a very martial-sounding version of the Rebel fanfare, with a pounding ostinato that, with its fast triplet rhythms on the last beat of each bar, is almost a foreshadowing of the ostinato beneath the "real" Imperial March, with the same triplet rhythm on the last beat as well (only in 3/4 time, instead of 4/4).

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 10:05 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

So you prefer the opinion of the music editor on the radio adaptation over the composer's own expressed intentions?

Yes! wink Seriously I don't dispute the original intent of the music. It's apparently written in stone, so to speak. But I never read the music the way it was intended. I just find it interesting that someone else also thought it represented an "Imperial Attack" theme. That tells me in this case, the creatives were a little off with their messaging.


It's also important to remember that not every leitmotif is used so strictly that it ONLY appears when its subject is doing something onscreen. Most obvious is the rendition of Leia's theme as Obi-wan is cut down by Vader.

I never really thought about it before, but it is easy to see the Rebel Fanfare as an Imperial theme, especially in the scene where the Falcon is grabbed by the Death Star's tractor beam. Williams used a very martial-sounding version of the Rebel fanfare, with a pounding ostinato that, with its fast triplet rhythms on the last beat of each bar, is almost a foreshadowing of the ostinato beneath the "real" Imperial March, with the same triplet rhythm on the last beat as well (only in 3/4 time, instead of 4/4).


Very true. Williams interchanged many themes. I always thought of the Force theme as Ben's theme. But obviously Luke inherited that and for good reason. As you said Lea's theme had been used for other character moments.

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 11:30 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

Very true. Williams interchanged many themes. I always thought of the Force theme as Ben's theme. But obviously Luke inherited that and for good reason. As you said Lea's theme had been used for other character moments.

And in Star Wars it WAS Ben's theme. It's also the best theme EVER. IMHO. wink

Another "aw heck it sounds good" use of a theme is all of the Yoda stuff on Cloud City. I guess because Luke is using his training? I'm not buying it. I just think it was because it sounds great.

 
 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 12:13 PM   
 By:   tex1272   (Member)

Maybe this has been brought ups somewhere before, but why didn't Williams use his droids theme from EMPIRE in JEDI? Or in the prequel series? Seems like it was just abandoned like Boba Fett's theme.

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 2:02 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

Maybe this has been brought ups somewhere before, but why didn't Williams use his droids theme from EMPIRE in JEDI? Or in the prequel series? Seems like it was just abandoned like Boba Fett's theme.

He sort of plays Jabba's theme in a similar fashion to the droid theme (love that theme) when the droids are introduced.

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 2:50 PM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

Can someone explain the "droid" theme from Empire? I can't place what this would be.

 
 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 5:15 PM   
 By:   jenkwombat   (Member)

Can someone explain the "droid" theme from Empire? I can't place what this would be.

Yeah, I'm confused too...

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 6:05 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

Can someone explain the "droid" theme from Empire? I can't place what this would be.

Yeah, I'm confused too...


It plays when R2 and 3PO appear, when R2 is scanning for Luke (well, it would have, it's dialed out in the film), when R2 bobs along underwater, and when R2 is puttering around fixing the Falcon. Wow, that's WAY more than Luke and Leia!

 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 6:23 PM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Very true. Williams interchanged many themes. I always thought of the Force theme as Ben's theme. But obviously Luke inherited that and for good reason. As you said Lea's theme had been used for other character moments.

And in Star Wars it WAS Ben's theme. It's also the best theme EVER. IMHO. wink

Another "aw heck it sounds good" use of a theme is all of the Yoda stuff on Cloud City. I guess because Luke is using his training? I'm not buying it. I just think it was because it sounds great.


I've always been perplexed by that one! I guess they wanted something light and airy and Yoda's theme fit the needs without writing additional music. Maybe that's really the bottom line. Empire was probably William's most complex score ever, and perhaps he took a few short cuts for the least important scenes.

 
 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 7:18 PM   
 By:   tex1272   (Member)

Can someone explain the "droid" theme from Empire? I can't place what this would be.

Yeah, I'm confused too...


It plays when R2 and 3PO appear, when R2 is scanning for Luke (well,
it would have, it's dialed out in the film), when R2 bobs along underwater, and when R2 is puttering around fixing the Falcon. Wow, that's WAY more than Luke and Leia!


My favorite use of this cue is heard right after Lando says, "This deal is getting worse all the time" and it cuts to Chewie attempting to repair 3P0.

 
 
 Posted:   May 22, 2013 - 7:35 PM   
 By:   Ludwig van   (Member)

The fanfare is also used at the end of It's A Trap as the rebels engage the Imperial fleet.

Forgot that one. Any others?

Is it really only used that one time in ESB?


The Rebel Fanfare occurs at these points in ESB:

- The Battle of Hoth - 3:14 and 10:45
- Betrayal at Bespin - 1:24 (only the first two motives of it) and a more veiled reference in the previous phrase at 1:14 (which becomes clear after hearing the second clearer phrase)
- End credits (of course)

I think that's it for the fanfare, which is surprising given its prominence in Episode IV.

Also, for me, the sound of this theme has always been too heroic to sound like anything associated with the Empire, especially because of the high trumpets and major chords. But it's true that not every statement of every leitmotif is so tightly coordinated with something in the image, as has been pointed out here.

 
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