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 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 8:30 AM   
 By:   jedizim   (Member)


YOR does not agree that Goldsmith would not be able to score "The Thing" the way the movie need. On the contrary, his score would turn the movie even better.


Nice to see your blind devotion to Goldsmith is at least as great as your blind hatred of Zimmer. Goldsmith can do no wrong, and Zimmer can do no right. No shades of grey with you is there?

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 8:48 AM   
 By:   mrchriswell   (Member)

Jerry would have been fine, but he scored lots of pictures in this vein. I feel I know what it would have been like even though it doesn't exist. Ennio brought something singularly sinister to Carpenter's movie. It's perfection. "What if's" are wasted here.

As I said earlier in the thread, the curiosity in this mix is Alex North. I doubt he'd have bettered Morricone, but I'm at least curious about what his approach might have been.

 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 8:49 AM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

Nice to see your blind devotion to Goldsmith is at least as great as your blind hatred of Zimmer. Goldsmith can do no wrong, and Zimmer can do no right. No shades of grey with you is there?

Mad Fanboy Covered in Blood thinks YOR is blind.

YOR laughs at Mad Fanboy Covered in Blood.

 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 9:02 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Beltrami totally missed the mark in his sequel score because he choose to approach it more literally than Morricone did.


While it's debatable whether Beltrami's general approach fits what people expect from "The Thing," it can't be denied that Beltrami's score is highly creative in orchestration and arrangement.

So much energy! Truly the music of Eldritch horror that would drive your neighbors INSANE.

Even Goldsmith himself in his prime wouldn't have done a better job IMO.


I'd like to know what you base this on? I heard nothing innovative in Beltrami's score that Xenakis, Crumb, Penderecki, or Ligeti hadn't done 50 years ago. And saying be did a better job than Goldsmith would have is plain subjective rhetoric.

Have you been seen the conductors score? I'm sure Beltrami wouldn't say his score was better than a Goldsmith in his prime score.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 9:50 AM   
 By:   facehugger   (Member)



I'd like to know what you base this on? I heard nothing innovative in Beltrami's score that Xenakis, Crumb, Penderecki, or Ligeti hadn't done 50 years ago. And saying be did a better job than Goldsmith would have is plain subjective rhetoric.


Lol you're comparing Beltrami to Penderecki? One is a hired-gun who works under enormous pressure from both the studio and the director (who, mind you, was also treated badly by the studio during the making of The Thing Prequel) at the risk of being replaced by an MV drone at any minute, whereas the other a freelance academic composer who works at his own leisure and was from a completely different era not so tainted by commercialization?

BTW, Beltrami even named a cue in his Wolverine score "Threnody for Nagasaki"! --This must warrant your serious comparison of Beltrami against Penderecki right?

On the other hand, what has Goldsmith done that is not heard from the likes of Schonberg, Debussy, Stravinsky and John Cage?

But sarcastism aside, I INDEED have never heard the "breathing orchestra" effect in other classical composers' works. Please enlighten me in terms of finding out who Beltrami ripped off.

 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 1:04 PM   
 By:   David Kessler   (Member)

Even Goldsmith himself in his prime wouldn't have done a better job IMO.

You are aware that heretic language like that can get you killed in this place, the Chuck Norris school of Jerry Goldsmith facts.
Rule 1 Jerry is the best
Rule 2 Jerry is a better composer than everone else
Rule 3 repeat rules 1 and 2 over and over again (preferably on a Goldsmith tune)
Rule 4 If Jerry composes a score, and someone else composes an equally good score, Jerry's score is better.
Rule 5 If Jerry composes a score, and someone else composes a better score, Jerry's score is better.
Rule 6 Denie rule 5 and repeat rule 3.

D.S.


Rule 1 No he isn´t
Rule 2 No he isn´t
Rule 3 ZZZZzzzzzzzzz
Rule 4 No it´s not
Rule 5 Eh No it´s not duhh
Rule 6 OK??

I can see God from here and I´ll kick his puny little ass and tell him you said Hi wink

Back to The Thing and it´s music...It kicks Alien´s Ass from here to Bogota...

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 1:04 PM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

On the other hand, what has Goldsmith done that is not heard from the likes of Schonberg, Debussy, Stravinsky and John Cage?

PLANET OF THE APES, THE MEPHISTO WALTZ, THE ILLUSTRATED MAN etc. Also, his concert works from that 68-71 period - namely Christus Apollo - is all Jerry. Even if you were more specific and said "what has Goldsmith done that is not heard from the likes of Maderna, Varése, Boulez, Ginastera, and Gerhard - I'd still stand by that statement.

I also don't think DavidCoscina was talking about "ripping" off effects and gestures (James Horner is much more guilty of that) - more about the general idiom. The kind soundmass/aleatoric writing heard in THE THING prequel has become commodified by Hollywood. What was daring and brave back in the 60s/70s is now a cliché for horror and suspense. It's been devalued into a lazy gimmick. McPenderecki.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 1:16 PM   
 By:   facehugger   (Member)



PLANET OF THE APES, THE MEPHISTO WALTZ, THE ILLUSTRATED MAN etc. Also, his concert works from that 68-71 period - namely Christus Apollo - is all Jerry. Even if you were more specific and said "what has Goldsmith done that is not heard from the likes of Maderna, Varése, Boulez, Ginastera, and Gerhard - I'd still stand by that statement. .


Planet of the Apes etc. is Schonberger/John Cage lite.

Christus Apollo (specifically, "Music for Orchestra") is very Stravinsky-ish.

I love Goldsmith to death but comparing "film composers" (I know Goldsmith hated this term) who are hired-guns to classical composers is just not realistic.

As for McPenderecki, like I said, (1) Beltrami works under constant pressure of being fired; (2) 99.9% of today's horror movies feature Jablonsky's droning and bass such that Penderecki-ish horror scores are now like unicorns, which is why (1). --In fact, audience even complained about Beltrami's McPenderecki score to Don't Be Afraid of the Dark; (3) I'm not saying his aggressive orchestration per se breaks new ground, only that the "monster breathing" effect is a nice gimmick, which is all I dare to ask for in a fast food Hollywood score.

 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 1:18 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

Back to The Thing and it´s music...It kicks Alien´s Ass from here to Bogota...

Hahahahaha! No.

 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 1:54 PM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

On the other hand, what has Goldsmith done that is not heard from the likes of Schonberg, Debussy, Stravinsky and John Cage?

PLANET OF THE APES, THE MEPHISTO WALTZ, THE ILLUSTRATED MAN etc. Also, his concert works from that 68-71 period - namely Christus Apollo - is all Jerry. Even if you were more specific and said "what has Goldsmith done that is not heard from the likes of Maderna, Varése, Boulez, Ginastera, and Gerhard - I'd still stand by that statement.

I also don't think DavidCoscina was talking about "ripping" off effects and gestures (James Horner is much more guilty of that) - more about the general idiom. The kind soundmass/aleatoric writing heard in THE THING prequel has become commodified by Hollywood. What was daring and brave back in the 60s/70s is now a cliché for horror and suspense. It's been devalued into a lazy gimmick. McPenderecki.


Very well put.

Beltrami has chops, don't get me wrong. And I have admittedly a limited perspective on his output because I was more or less put off his initial scores- not as effective underscore mind you since I like Mimic, Blade 2, Hellboy, etc but I just cannot get too jazzed about his melodic writing.

There were a couple music fx in The Thing that he did do well. But his big orchestral writing that was more melodic just didn't feel right compared to Morricone's stark, desolate musical landscape.

Look facehugger, we can argue until we're blue in the face here but it really comes down to personal taste. I don't like what Beltrami did and my appreciation of the film suffered accordingly. You think he did a better job than Goldsmith would have in his prime. I think that's completely wrong to be honest but hey, it's free country and you can make whatever assertions you like at the end of the day.

But I don't want to belabor arguing about the merits of a guy who has a lot of training and chops.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 1:58 PM   
 By:   facehugger   (Member)

You think he did a better job than Goldsmith would have in his prime.

Woot woot!

I said "Jerry couldn't have done better in his prime." That's not the same as "Beltrami did better than Jerry."

Please refer to the previously mentioned "Holy Doctrine of Jerry Goldsmith Fans": nobody does better than Jerry Goldsmith.

 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 2:02 PM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

Back to The Thing and it´s music...It kicks Alien´s Ass from here to Bogota...

I like Morricone's Thing and Goldsmith's Alien equally. They are classic, terrific scores. smile




 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 2:04 PM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

You think he did a better job than Goldsmith would have in his prime.

Woot woot!

I said "Jerry couldn't have done better in his prime." That's not the same as "Beltrami did better than Jerry."

Please refer to the previously mentioned "Holy Doctrine of Jerry Goldsmith Fans": nobody does better than Jerry Goldsmith.


Goldsmith had a greater melodic/harmonic breadth than I've heard from Beltrami comparing the two composers' output. And while I don't own a lot of Beltrami, I have seen a lot of films he's scored.

BUT- I am willing to give World War Z a chance as well as The Wolverine because the former sound clips sound very good.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 2:27 PM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

Planet of the Apes etc. is Schonberger/John Cage lite.

POTA is dodecaphonic and employs pointillistic writing, but it bares little resemblance to Schoenberg (unless you think all serial music sounds alike and therefore interchangeable), let alone John Cage (!) - where did you pull that from?

A genuine example of a Shoenberg influence would be his Piano Concerto Op. 42 and Rosenman's THE COBWEB (the first 12 tone score), but even then I'd never call it Shoenberg-lite.

PS - It's Shoenberg/Schönberg - not "Schonberger."

Christus Apollo (specifically, "Music for Orchestra") is very Stravinsky-ish.

Er, no it isn't.

All I can guess is you're not familiar with the composers and works it actually shares a similarity with.

*Paging ToneRow and TheFamousEccles*

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 8, 2013 - 2:28 PM   
 By:   facehugger   (Member)



Goldsmith had a greater melodic/harmonic breadth than I've heard from Beltrami comparing the two composers' output. And while I don't own a lot of Beltrami, I have seen a lot of films he's scored.

BUT- I am willing to give World War Z a chance as well as The Wolverine because the former sound clips sound very good.


Nobody does it better than Goldsmith. Not even John Williams (I can already see folks gathering with pitchforks...).

WWZ is mediocre IMO. The "wood-chopping brass riff representing zombie waves" gimmick gets old really fast. Probably a victim of the trouble during the film making process.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 3:57 AM   
 By:   daj3674   (Member)

I think the stark atonal sounds of the Morricone soundtrack fits the movie really well, it has a bone chilling quality which is suitable for both the bleak isolation of Antarctica and the menace of a shape shifting alien entity.

I am not sure even with the brilliance of Goldsmith, that he could have composed a theme which would have interwoven as well as with the movie as Morricone's.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 5:18 AM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

We've got what we've got, which is a unique, chilling and perfectly-matched score. Just listening to the score apart from the film is enough to conjure up the sense of isolation and paranoia. Goldsmith would doubtless have produced something that worked while watching the film, but in my experience and opinion, it would have been long odds to bring out a CD that was remotely listenable.

TG

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 10:55 AM   
 By:   miguel   (Member)

I think Morricone's score is superb. And, of course, Goldsmith would have provided an excellent score as well. This was 1982, when even such a film as, say, "Rock Condom 2: Hanzimmer is Shagged by Yor", would have got a Goldsmith masterpiece.

 
 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 12:42 PM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

We've got what we've got, which is a unique, chilling and perfectly-matched score. Just listening to the score apart from the film is enough to conjure up the sense of isolation and paranoia. Goldsmith would doubtless have produced something that worked while watching the film, but in my experience and opinion, it would have been long odds to bring out a CD that was remotely listenable.

TG


Could not agree more. Morricone is actually more versatile than I originally thought. He scored the Japanese mini series Musashi which sounded amazing though hard to top Ikuma Dan's triumphant Samurai Trilogy. Sort of not fair. Morricone is an Italian composer scoring the mother of all Japanese icons while Dan was Japanese himself. But Ennio still wrote an amazing score for that mini series.

 
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