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 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 11:35 AM   
 By:   neelyre   (Member)

Holst's Planets, particularly Mars, is more obvious in other film scores.

What about 'The Right Stuff'? And Cliff Eidelman's Main title to "Star Trek VI"

If the Holst estate really wants to make issue of composer plagiarism, I'd start with those over 'Gladiator' or 'Star Wars'

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 11:51 AM   
 By:   Maleficio   (Member)



What about 'The Right Stuff'?


Dead people can't sue especially if the music is in the public domain.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 12:34 PM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)

Holst's Planets, particularly Mars, is more obvious in other film scores.

What about 'The Right Stuff'? And Cliff Eidelman's Main title to "Star Trek VI"

If the Holst estate really wants to make issue of composer plagiarism, I'd start with those over 'Gladiator' or 'Star Wars'


Holst is, of course, fair game now because his music became free of copyright in 2004 (70 years after his death). A good thing too because I think it's ridiculous for copyright to last so long.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 12:49 PM   
 By:   Neseri   (Member)

I recall the Gustav Holst estate accused Hans Zimmer or plagiarizing "Mars" in the Gladiator battle music. I don't know if anything ever came of this.

Isn't Planets in public domain?

Anyway, speaking of plagiarism, anyone else noticed how much Horner's Battle beyond the stars is similar to Goldsmiths Star Trek The Motion Picture?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wilRDtfxFL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjlBXmn2Q0s

Even in cartoon shows plagiarism popped up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lz_U9Np_nZ8&t=726

Sound familiar? smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfLsDXmjPo

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 12:49 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)


It's this bit of Mars (at 6:56):

that makes its way into STAR WARS in "Rebel Blockade Runner" at 1:40:

It's clear that the former was used as a temp track, especially since we know for sure that Holst was used for that purpose in the film's creation.


Dead to rights. Ok, two places. Are there more. Is there something in The Last Battle? My point is that for some reason Holst is seen as the driving energy of the music of Star Wars. (Admittedly it is what Lucas temped the movie with.) But I don’t think it is. No one seems to call out Rite of Spring for the Tatooine stuff.

I just want to say that it's awfully sad that anyone on a message board devoted to this kind of music would need to go to YouTube to remember what "Mars, The Bringer Of War" and the "Main Title" of Star Wars sound like.

Condescending but hilarious.

Holst's Planets, particularly Mars, is more obvious in other film scores.

What about 'The Right Stuff'? And Cliff Eidelman's Main title to "Star Trek VI"

If the Holst estate really wants to make issue of composer plagiarism, I'd start with those over 'Gladiator' or 'Star Wars'


I believe Holst is credited on TRS. Is that right? Going from memory.

ST6 surprised me because it’s even in the liner notes that the original intent was to adapt The Planets but they didn’t because it was too expensive.

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:08 PM   
 By:   johnbijl   (Member)

Holst's Planets, particularly Mars, is more obvious in other film scores.

What about 'The Right Stuff'? And Cliff Eidelman's Main title to "Star Trek VI"



To quote Bill Conti: 'Do you call that a melody? I call that a rhythm!'



(source: I believe the Edel-issue of Masters of the Universe, but I'm not sure.)

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:12 PM   
 By:   Alfachrger   (Member)



Holst's Planets, particularly Mars, is more obvious in other film scores.

What about 'The Right Stuff'? And Cliff Eidelman's Main title to "Star Trek VI"

If the Holst estate really wants to make issue of composer plagiarism, I'd start with those over 'Gladiator' or 'Star Wars'


I believe Holst is credited on TRS. Is that right? Going from memory.

ST6 surprised me because it’s even in the liner notes that the original intent was to adapt The Planets but they didn’t because it was too expensive.

From a Filmtracks review.

"So tied to these temp tracks were the filmmakers that Conti had to re-write several cues to push them closer to the inspiration, by which point he demanded and was granted citation credit for those sources in the credits. He looks back amusingly upon his efforts to outright plagiarize Gustov Holst's "The Planets" and Henry Mancini's score for Kaufman's The White Dawn, along with references to Tchaikovsky along the way. For music aficionados, these quotations will be a bit obnoxious in the context of the film, though the greater obstacle for Conti to circumvent was the lack of time to really write a cohesively satisfying extension of his own ideas for the score."

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/right_stuff.html

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:13 PM   
 By:   Ester   (Member)

Since nobody has mentioned it, may I remind you the sad case involving Luis Bacalov and his oscar-winning score for "Il Postino" : he was accused by a record seller in Brazil to have stolen a melody from Sergio Endrigo, recorded on a LP, "La Voce Dell'Uomo" (released in 1975). Ennio Morricone even brought a piano into court to prove it was not a plagiarism. But the court decided otherwise because the introduction of the melody featured eight identical measures and six would be enough to characterize plagiarism.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:14 PM   
 By:   Alfachrger   (Member)

[Doublepost

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:34 PM   
 By:   Maleficio   (Member)

Since nobody has mentioned it, may I remind you the sad case involving Luis Bacalov and his oscar-winning score for "Il Postino" : he was accused by a record seller in Brazil to have stolen a melody from Sergio Endrigo, recorded on a LP, "La Voce Dell'Uomo" (released in 1975). Ennio Morricone even brought a piano into court to prove it was not a plagiarism. But the court decided otherwise because the introduction of the melody featured eight identical measures and six would be enough to characterize plagiarism.

And what was the judgment?

There is a similarity:


 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:41 PM   
 By:   Ludwig van   (Member)

It's this bit of Mars (at 6:56):

that makes its way into STAR WARS in "Rebel Blockade Runner" at 1:40:

It's clear that the former was used as a temp track, especially since we know for sure that Holst was used for that purpose in the film's creation.

Dead to rights. Ok, two places. Are there more. Is there something in The Last Battle? My point is that for some reason Holst is seen as the driving energy of the music of Star Wars. (Admittedly it is what Lucas temped the movie with.) But I don’t think it is. No one seems to call out Rite of Spring for the Tatooine stuff.


I would agree that Holst isn't the main influence for STAR WARS. Myself, I've always thought the Rite of Spring influence was just as strong as that of Mars. Actually, this is a bit off-topic, but while we're talking about it, here's an interesting interpretation of what the STAR WARS temp track might have sounded like in places:

http://www.subliminalia.com/2012/07/star-wars-temp-track-una-reconstruccion-musical/

Some seem like a stretch, to be sure, but interesting nevertheless.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 1:47 PM   
 By:   c8   (Member)

Some doctor claimed John Williams stole a lullaby he wrote for his dead daughter and used it as the main theme to Jurassic Park. This article from 1996 is all that I ever heard of it. Not sure anything came of it (the whole thing sounds super-sketchy):

http://articles.latimes.com/1996-06-14/local/me-14799_1_jurassic-park

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 2:03 PM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

Some doctor claimed John Williams stole a lullaby he wrote for his dead daughter and used it as the main theme to Jurassic Park. This article from 1996 is all that I ever heard of it. Not sure anything came of it (the whole thing sounds super-sketchy):

http://articles.latimes.com/1996-06-14/local/me-14799_1_jurassic-park


JP is the only time I can think of where I could hear another score (as opposed to a classical piece) temped into a Williams score. Right after Hammond says "I'll show you" after they see the first dinos, the music goes directly into the Jurassic Park version of Doyle's Henry V. Journey to the Island 7:30 - 8:20ish. I'm sure Spielberg thought it was the bomb that year.

http://www.subliminalia.com/2012/07/star-wars-temp-track-una-reconstruccion-musical/

Some seem like a stretch, to be sure, but interesting nevertheless.


That is terrific!

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 2:07 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Regarding Baxter and ET. Maybe someone can confirm this, I have heard/read that Baxter was reluctant to sue and that Henry Mancini encouraged him to do so. This apparently led to some bad blood between Mancini and Williams.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 2:09 PM   
 By:   jwb   (Member)



Also, working composers are often reluctant to sue a studio for fear of exactly what's happened to Elliot Goldenthal. He won his case, but will never work for Warner Bros. again. There aren't many major studios. It's a risk.


Or have his works expanded for future release. Anyway, Elliot is doing fine.

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 2:33 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

Ennio Morricone ever sued Zimmer for using his "Secret of the Sahara" on "Gladiator" and "Sherlock Holmes"?

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 2:38 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

So what about parody? Can a composer parody a theme and get away with it? Like Richard Band did with Psycho theme for Re-animator? Great interpretation smile

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 3:04 PM   
 By:   Ester   (Member)

Since nobody has mentioned it, may I remind you the sad case involving Luis Bacalov and his oscar-winning score for "Il Postino" : he was accused by a record seller in Brazil to have stolen a melody from Sergio Endrigo, recorded on a LP, "La Voce Dell'Uomo" (released in 1975). Ennio Morricone even brought a piano into court to prove it was not a plagiarism. But the court decided otherwise because the introduction of the melody featured eight identical measures and six would be enough to characterize plagiarism.



And what was the judgment?


Thanks for asking, Maleficio, because I didn't know about the 2005 last and final judgement that states it is NOT a plagiarism. The previous decision in 2003 stated the opposite. I can't find a proper translation of the Italian common law terms (Corte d’appello, Cassazione) mainly because the Italian common law system differs from the English and North American's one, so I hope you can read italian :

http://www.adnkronos.com/Archivio/AdnAgenzia/2005/11/24/Spettacolo/Cinema/CINEMA-CASSAZIONE-IL-POSTINO-DI-BACALOV-NON-E-UN-PLAGIO-DI-ENDRIGO-ALMENO-PER-ORA_164849.php

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 4:28 PM   
 By:   random guy   (Member)

the "Gladiator" thing really caught me off guard. i'm guessing the Holst estate never heard "Gunfight Montage" from Silvestri's great score "The Quick and the Dead"?

 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2013 - 5:10 PM   
 By:   Elmo Bernstein   (Member)

I wonder if Harold Arlen tried to sue Khachaturian for plagiarizing "Stormy Weather" in Spartacus? big grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezGHapF8-lY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvvZ2a0E9hQ

 
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