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I live in an alternate universe in which I didn't notice all these problems existed with the domestic blu ray. lol. Why doesn't someone with industry connections fire an email to someone who would know how the disc was mastered?
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Posted: |
Aug 4, 2011 - 10:59 PM
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By: |
Nexus6BT
(Member)
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It seems that for many films, if not most, several versions exist and rarely is any one of them definitive. With so many formats to cater to, I suspect many hands are in the mix to get it all done on time, and only the devout fans will notice the differences or care. In the end, the differences are often small, and we may never know of every versions that has existed through the years.
That's true, too, and there are often slight modifications to a film's soundtrack, even when the theatrical release already had a 5.1 mix. But this particular one in the Conan track sounds like a genuine goof. On whose part, though, I don't know.
The latter -- that scene was only added to the 2002 DVD by Milius.
The Universal US Blu-Ray is the 129 min. international version of the film that has all the additions from the 2002 DVD -- except that one. The Fox international Blu-Ray has the full, 130 min. "expanded" international version with the "childhood" scene intact.
Thanks; like I said, I'm always fascinated by these little changes that happen for whatever reason. So I guess the 2002 DVD was actually the "third" released version.
And I don't mean to sound so negative about Universal. They've put out some quality releases over the years. It's just that they seem to not only let things like missing bits of music and dialogue happen, but also not do anything about them, whereas other studios will often fix genuine mistakes, and even offer an exchange program (Universal did do this with the old Back to the Future DVD set). And of course, a very small number of their customers are going to notice these things, but that's really no excuse for not trying to get it right.
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If the original mono track had been retained...
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Yeah I stand corrected. The choral is reduced, then diminishes to nothing after the chick runs around the fence and the riders jump over, then comes back when the puppies leap.
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Posted: |
Aug 5, 2011 - 11:01 AM
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By: |
AndyDursin
(Member)
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They've put out some quality releases over the years. It's just that they seem to not only let things like missing bits of music and dialogue happen, but also not do anything about them, whereas other studios will often fix genuine mistakes, and even offer an exchange program (Universal did do this with the old Back to the Future DVD set). And of course, a very small number of their customers are going to notice these things, but that's really no excuse for not trying to get it right.
My only defense for them here is that this track wasn't their doing, and on the US version of LEGEND, I don't count the alterations as being a "genuine mistake." It's from a different source, which is interesting -- who's to say it's "wrong"? Maybe the version that was out before was "incorrect"? Either way Scott (or at least his people) supervised the transfer, so I've got to imagine whatever version they took it from, had his approval. There's no need for a recall of something that doesn't have anything really "erroneous" abut it in that instance...it's just different.
Where you can fault Uni on CONAN is the mono track not being included, which is a legit gripe, though one that has happened to so many titles over the years I've lost count. The sad thing is the 5.1 track really does sound good -- your choice is listening to it and not hearing the chorus in those sections (which IS a loss), or going back to the old mono mix on the DVD which sounds like it's coming out of a tin can by comparison. That old original track is atrocious and does no justice to Basil's score (it's not like JAWS, which was a brilliantly engineered mono track)...the 5.1 track is a better representation with the obvious big caveat of the chorus being dialed out/missing in a few places.
Maybe one day they'll go back to the stereo masters and really, truly remix everything, and get it right at that time...but it certainly won't be anytime soon.
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Posted: |
Aug 5, 2011 - 8:18 PM
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By: |
Nexus6BT
(Member)
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My only defense for them here is that this track wasn't their doing, and on the US version of LEGEND, I don't count the alterations as being a "genuine mistake." It's from a different source, which is interesting -- who's to say it's "wrong"? Maybe the version that was out before was "incorrect"? Either way Scott (or at least his people) supervised the transfer, so I've got to imagine whatever version they took it from, had his approval. There's no need for a recall of something that doesn't have anything really "erroneous" abut it in that instance...it's just different.
If this is indeed from the 70mm mix, then you're right; it's technically not "wrong." But often the 70mm mixes for films that were blowups from 35mm were not considered the "final" mix by the filmmakers. So while you could say that the 70mm mix isn't "incorrect," I think an argument could be made that the 35mm two-channel mix was probably "more correct." Of course, not too many people considered the US cut of Legend correct at all, anyway 
I do wonder how many 5.1 remixes out there have been based on 70mm mixes, and therefore contain some of these little differences. And again, I don't mean to make such a big deal about such small changes; the film history buff in me is just always interested in alternate presentations of films. And I still think it would be nice if they would just include the 2-channel mix as well.
And a recall wouldn't be necessary, but an acknowledgment and a replacement wouldn't be unprecedented. Warner and Disney have done this for similar issues in the past.
Where you can fault Uni on CONAN is the mono track not being included, which is a legit gripe, though one that has happened to so many titles over the years I've lost count. The sad thing is the 5.1 track really does sound good -- your choice is listening to it and not hearing the chorus in those sections (which IS a loss), or going back to the old mono mix on the DVD which sounds like it's coming out of a tin can by comparison. That old original track is atrocious and does no justice to Basil's score (it's not like JAWS, which was a brilliantly engineered mono track)...the 5.1 track is a better representation with the obvious big caveat of the chorus being dialed out/missing in a few places.
Maybe one day they'll go back to the stereo masters and really, truly remix everything, and get it right at that time...but it certainly won't be anytime soon.
Again, I haven't heard the Conan Blu-ray, and I don't really know the movie that well. But I know and love the score, so I imagine losing the chorus in those scenes does lessen the impact a little, and I understand fans' annoyance at it. It'd be like mixing down the Force-theme fanfare during the Death Star trench run in Star Wars. Wait...
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Posted: |
Aug 6, 2011 - 12:02 PM
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By: |
Sunrise
(Member)
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...Where you can fault Uni on CONAN is the mono track not being included, which is a legit gripe, though one that has happened to so many titles over the years I've lost count. The sad thing is the 5.1 track really does sound good -- your choice is listening to it and not hearing the chorus in those sections (which IS a loss), or going back to the old mono mix on the DVD which sounds like it's coming out of a tin can by comparison. That old original track is atrocious and does no justice to Basil's score (it's not like JAWS, which was a brilliantly engineered mono track)...the 5.1 track is a better representation with the obvious big caveat of the chorus being dialed out/missing in a few places.
Maybe one day they'll go back to the stereo masters and really, truly remix everything, and get it right at that time...but it certainly won't be anytime soon.
We can´t be totally sure about the reasons why Universal or Fox didn´t include the mono mix. What we can be pretty sure about is that they didn´t want it for some reason, which we can only speculate on. Either they deliberately didn´t or they didn´t feel the need. A mono mix does occupy very little space on the blu-ray, after all.
I didn´t hear the 5.1 mix for years and today I listened to it on the Blu-ray just to confirm that it doesn´t sound like the dual-mono (on the collector´s edition DVD) at all. Sound clarity is certainly improved a lot, the track has a lot more "air" and is a lot more refined. What the 5.1 mix misses though is the ferocity the dual mono has. Every scene that had the background chorus going nuts now just doesn´t feel right.
If Universal had included the mono mix, too, everyone would have easily realized the audio differences right from the start.
Since Intrada recently discovered the original 4-track and 24-track units in the Universal archives, you can only guess why there was basically no effort done whatsoever to remaster it like it should have been. And why everyone were made to believe that these masters don´t exist anymore.
Hopefully some more media will get aware of it and hopefully we can expect a remaster. But like you I am not very faithful. Sadly, Basil passed away and because of that we don´t really know what he intended to do or did with the stereo mix. He could´ve remastered everything. But now the chances are pretty thin.
Maybe Bill Hunt could call Universal or ask his studio sources, what´s up.
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I found this news on 'The Digital Bits' page:
"All right, first things first today: There appears to be an audio problem with Universal's new Conan the Barbarian Blu-ray. Essentially, the film's "remastered" 5.1 DTS-HD MA soundtrack is missing several pieces of choral music in Basil Poledouris' score and select instruments are apparently inaudible in the mix. It also appears there may be occasionally inaudible sound effects. And the disc doesn't include the original mono mix, so you've no other option. I've alerted Universal to this and am told that they're looking into it. Hopefully, they'll correct the problem and issue replacement discs, because this is the kind of thing that drives diehard fans of a film absolutely crazy. We'll let you know as soon as we hear more. "
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I have received a response from Universal telling me they have no plans to reissue the title.
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