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 Posted:   May 30, 2014 - 3:05 PM   
 By:   SoundScope   (Member)

OMG! While I appreciate everyone's passion on this particular subject, I find it a little hard to care so long after the fact. There is much to enjoy in the Tadlow recording, most of all that it is the entire score and one can finally hear Rozsa's intention as pure music. I've never had a problem with the sonics, but again, I'm not an expert.

What I do have a problem with is minor and personal: I don't care for the tempo in the Finale and that the organ used sounds "electronic" (as compared to classical pipe organ) to me. This one issue was a huge dissapointment for me, and has, unfortimatly colored my opinion of the whole performance, which despite this humble opinion, is still quite good.

In the recording by Rozsa himself conducting The Royal Philharmonic on London (820 200-2), I find the Finale tempo more reverential where it is given time to seep into your pores and the organ part, though not that prominant, less sounding like a Hammond.

In the end, and I've said this countless times on this message board: ART IS SUBJECTIVE. There will always be discussions and arguments over interpretations and style. You simply can not please everyone.

 
 Posted:   May 31, 2014 - 8:44 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

I realize they're not the same, with many differences including the fact that ave caesar at times carries the melody on strings while Hail Nero does it with the brass. But they're similar enough for me that I only want to use one, so which would you recommend?


I can only be subjective on this. If your priority is sonics, then the 'Ave Caesar' has to be well within range of anything, at least in the beginning, but it's not 'score'.

But the 'Hail Nero' is still very listenable. It was always a 'harsh' piece on the OST with the RPO/BBC Borehamwood sessions, and recorded outdoors. So any harshness in the Tadlow mix, I'd think would be intentional. It doesn't detract from the piece. Remember that dramatically, this is meant to be inflated, pagan, totally over the top, and back in 1951 was even quite deliberately intended to invoke memories of Nazi marches. Lygia is overwhelmed and afraid by the passions it stirs up, and runs away. That meant something back then.

The 'Ave Caesar' stands as separate music, about Rome in general, the empire, the flavours and textures of that city and its influence, and needn't relate to the film at all. If you want to keep within Rozsa's 'authentic' notion, the 'Hail Nero' is your piece that tallies with all the other 'period' pieces in the score, many having real Greek tunes. But if your priority is sonic experience, then that's not so objective a choice.

You could use the 'Ave Caesar' as an overture, and move the Overture to the Intermezzo spot maybe. Or use 'Ave Caesar' as an Intermezzo, since a flattened version of the Vinicius motif that starts and ends the march also begins the Prelude to Part 2.

 
 Posted:   May 31, 2014 - 8:53 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

In the recording by Rozsa himself conducting The Royal Philharmonic on London (820 200-2), I find the Finale tempo more reverential where it is given time to seep into your pores and the organ part....


That's because companies re-recording tend to use the composer's own tempo notes, whilst in THIS instance, he was present to do it his way. But of course, the composer's 'own' tempo notes on paper relate to the reality of the FILM and its limitations. The actual QV finale (see FSM) is in fact even faster than on the Tadlow/Prometheus, because that's how the editors paced the film. And the director. In the OST, several phrases are cut to shorten it further. But that doesn't make it best in all worlds.

What a composer wants ideally from a piece, and the pace he needs to take it at for the film's timings are two different things. And the difference will not show up on the scoresheets, which are are a priori based on the film itself.

 
 Posted:   Jun 1, 2014 - 5:57 AM   
 By:   General Kael   (Member)

I can only be subjective on this. If your priority is sonics, then the 'Ave Caesar' has to be well within range of anything, at least in the beginning, but it's not 'score'.

But the 'Hail Nero' is still very listenable. It was always a 'harsh' piece on the OST with the RPO/BBC Borehamwood sessions, and recorded outdoors. So any harshness in the Tadlow mix, I'd think would be intentional. It doesn't detract from the piece. Remember that dramatically, this is meant to be inflated, pagan, totally over the top, and back in 1951 was even quite deliberately intended to invoke memories of Nazi marches. Lygia is overwhelmed and afraid by the passions it stirs up, and runs away. That meant something back then.

The 'Ave Caesar' stands as separate music, about Rome in general, the empire, the flavours and textures of that city and its influence, and needn't relate to the film at all. If you want to keep within Rozsa's 'authentic' notion, the 'Hail Nero' is your piece that tallies with all the other 'period' pieces in the score, many having real Greek tunes. But if your priority is sonic experience, then that's not so objective a choice.

You could use the 'Ave Caesar' as an overture, and move the Overture to the Intermezzo spot maybe. Or use 'Ave Caesar' as an Intermezzo, since a flattened version of the Vinicius motif that starts and ends the march also begins the Prelude to Part 2.



Your commentary is very much appreciated, William. Thank you. After reading your post I kept trying to read more about these cues (because listening to them each 25 times isn't enough, haha) and I found this comment by James Fitz regarding the triumphal march:

And of course with the march we did both the film orchestration...NO strings but lots of ww, multiple brass and perc...and the suite version for full tutti orchestra

 
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