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Thanks for the insight. I'll see if I can track the extra versions down on iTunes then. Doh!
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 12:11 AM
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By: |
Jon Broxton
(Member)
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Also, the character were well written with arcs and great dynamics. A lot of it was established through actions instead of words, which I think is great filmmaking.
You say this but - give me an example. Honestly, which major character ends the film a different person from who they were when the film began?
Max starts the film as a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive. He goes through the events of the film... and ends up a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive.
Furiosa starts the film as an idealistic, fierce female warrior trying to help her members of community have better lives. She goes through the events of the film... and ends up an idealistic, fierce female warrior trying to help her members of community have better lives.
Immortan Joe starts the film as a megalomaniacal tyrant ruling his citadel through a combination of fear, violence and intimidation... and, when he dies, he is still a megalomaniacal tyrant ruling his citadel through a combination of fear, violence and intimidation.
The only person who has ANY kind of character arc is Nux, who starts out being a fanatical follower of Immortan Joe's philosophy, and is changed into someone who understands the sanctity of human life, and tries to help Furiosa and the wives. But... really... his 'conversion' is so paper thin - all it takes to change his entire lifelong devotion to Joe is one encounter where Joe isn't nice to him, and one of the wives being nice to him instead. Really? That's the motivation for the character essentially abandoning his entire existence and place in the world?? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.
Visually and conceptually brilliant. Terribly written.
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I agree with some of what you say Jon, although I don't need ANY characters to change to stop me from having a FURIOUSLY good time with a film.
SPOILERS!!!
However, Nux changes sides but honestly, he knows he's dying and only wants a glorious death anyway.
Max does change from being a screwed-up mental case, only knowing survival (at the beginning) to someone who puts his life on the line (on more than one occasion) to save Theron and the girls.
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 5:24 AM
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By: |
Francis
(Member)
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MAJOR SPOILERS!
Max starts the film as a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive. He goes through the events of the film... and ends up a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive.
True, but you wouldn't want Max to "change", he is the franchise after all and given the previous movies he isn't the emotional type.
Furiosa starts the film as an idealistic, fierce female warrior trying to help her members of community have better lives. She goes through the events of the film... and ends up an idealistic, fierce female warrior trying to help her members of community have better lives.
Wrong. She starts off as an imperator enforcing Immortan Joe's law in command of a convoy of warboys. That means she went an awfully long time betraying her community. It isn't until most of the first act of the movie is through she shows her true intentions. And she goes from being a strong warrior who is in control most of the way to crying her heart out at the end of act two. When she does return, she isn't just trying to help her community, she owns it. She is the new leader...
Immortan Joe starts the film as a megalomaniacal tyrant ruling his citadel through a combination of fear, violence and intimidation... and, when he dies, he is still a megalomaniacal tyrant ruling his citadel through a combination of fear, violence and intimidation.
Villains rarely undergo any significant character changes, though I would argue that he got quite the kick in the nuts when he drove over his wife and son to be.
The only person who has ANY kind of character arc is Nux, who starts out being a fanatical follower of Immortan Joe's philosophy, and is changed into someone who understands the sanctity of human life, and tries to help Furiosa and the wives. But... really... his 'conversion' is so paper thin - all it takes to change his entire lifelong devotion to Joe is one encounter where Joe isn't nice to him, and one of the wives being nice to him instead. Really? That's the motivation for the character essentially abandoning his entire existence and place in the world?? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.
Joe is the equivalent of Nux's savior/religious leader ("immortan"), setup nicely in that moment where Nux shouts out to Joe while driving in the convoy, to look at him and when Joe does, the guy is so ecstatic he goes in to sacrifice himself a first time. He fails, but still manages to get on Joe's car. When his time comes again to shine and his savior Joe promising him he'll carry him to the gates of Valhalla himself, he fails again and this time in front of Joe who voices his disgust. Twice he did the spraypaint ritual and failed, and you could argue that because of his failing, Joe's favorite wife and perfect child ended up dead. It's like the Klingons in Star Trek; they want to die in battle, not lose and stick around in shame. So when he falls for the girl and decides to team up with her and the others, he is ultimately given another reason to die for, as to not die a meaningless death.
What you call "terribly written", I call brilliantly written because Miller achieves with a very tight script lots of big cathartic moments for some of these characters, which is what cinema is about. IMO.
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 11:32 AM
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By: |
nuts_score
(Member)
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Jon, I think your points are inherently flawed and reveal all of the wrinkles you would find in a "Screenwriting 101" class at you local community college. A good script isn't about "major character[s] end[ing] the film a different person from who they were when the film began." If that's what you truly think makes a good script, or a good film, then let me get a laundry list ready of cinematic classics which could give two shits about this "theory." A good script is about characters, sure. And fans of this film will stand by what they found in these characters. This isn't a slight on the film, because its connected with a great deal of its audience. But what this script is about is a goal, which is sought through a chase. Similar to Raiders of the Lost Ark, really. (How would that great script stand up to your theory about what makes a great script?)
Character arcs aren't about where the start and end up in any traditional sense, but what we see the character overcome through the events depicted in the film's story. You say:
Max starts the film as a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive. He goes through the events of the film... and ends up a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive.
The Max we see drifting aimlessly at the start of the picture is not one bit the same Max that comes out at the end of Fury Road. Max's "survival" is only his base dimension. We see him start as a frazzled individual only concerned with survival and through the plot must learn to trust an ally to accomplish a greater goal. This is a common thread throughout the Mad Max sequels. It's a thematic idea that drives Miller's "Rock & Roll Oz-sploitation Westerns" and puts them alongside classic character arcs like you would find in George Stevens' Shane (the end of Fury Road actively nods towards this), or Sergio Leone's Western pictures like The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.
Add to insult that Max is hardly bitter during the conclusion of Fury Road, and is stoically content with the victory their three day long struggle endured. Miller, his actors, his production crew, etc. only need to use knowing glances, a triumphant music cue, low- to high-angle picture compositions, and the gratification of an audience to accomplish what lesser storytellers would need to accomplish over pages of dialogue and a montage or two (here's looking at you, Age of Ultron).
As a script, its incredibly structured and polished, making it all the more unbelievable that the actors say they had no script whatsoever to even work with. This alone makes the feat the film accomplishes all the more unique. Think about legendary failed productions that didn't have scripts, or failed leadership, like Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate. By all accounts, Fury Road should've been the Heaven's Gate of Sci-Fi Action films but through Miller's command of leadership and his expression of vision the picture the audience received is a unique accomplishment and will likely earn incremental appreciation as time moves forward.
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I'm with you, nuts. Max is a travelling angel. Like the Man with no name, Mary Poppins, Shane, Harmonica, Scarlet Johansson in Under the Skin, and of course, Captain Vegetable, he will change the fate of others while not undergoing much in the way of change himself. This is not bad storytelling, just like it wasn't in The Road Warrior.
This script was superb regardless.
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Jon, I think your points are inherently flawed and reveal all of the wrinkles you would find in a "Screenwriting 101" class at you local community college. A good script isn't about "major character[s] end[ing] the film a different person from who they were when the film began." If that's what you truly think makes a good script, or a good film, then let me get a laundry list ready of cinematic classics which could give two shits about this "theory." A good script is about characters, sure. And fans of this film will stand by what they found in these characters. This isn't a slight on the film, because its connected with a great deal of its audience. But what this script is about is a goal, which is sought through a chase. Similar to Raiders of the Lost Ark, really. (How would that great script stand up to your theory about what makes a great script?)
Character arcs aren't about where the start and end up in any traditional sense, but what we see the character overcome through the events depicted in the film's story. You say:
Max starts the film as a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive. He goes through the events of the film... and ends up a bitter, violent drifter just trying to survive.
The Max we see drifting aimlessly at the start of the picture is not one bit the same Max that comes out at the end of Fury Road. Max's "survival" is only his base dimension. We see him start as a frazzled individual only concerned with survival and through the plot must learn to trust an ally to accomplish a greater goal. This is a common thread throughout the Mad Max sequels. It's a thematic idea that drives Miller's "Rock & Roll Oz-sploitation Westerns" and puts them alongside classic character arcs like you would find in George Stevens' Shane (the end of Fury Road actively nods towards this), or Sergio Leone's Western pictures like The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.
Add to insult that Max is hardly bitter during the conclusion of Fury Road, and is stoically content with the victory their three day long struggle endured. Miller, his actors, his production crew, etc. only need to use knowing glances, a triumphant music cue, low- to high-angle picture compositions, and the gratification of an audience to accomplish what lesser storytellers would need to accomplish over pages of dialogue and a montage or two (here's looking at you, Age of Ultron).
As a script, its incredibly structured and polished, making it all the more unbelievable that the actors say they had no script whatsoever to even work with. This alone makes the feat the film accomplishes all the more unique. Think about legendary failed productions that didn't have scripts, or failed leadership, like Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate. By all accounts, Fury Road should've been the Heaven's Gate of Sci-Fi Action films but through Miller's command of leadership and his expression of vision the picture the audience received is a unique accomplishment and will likely earn incremental appreciation as time moves forward.
That's a great bit of prose and nails how I feel about the movie. Like many, I don't have a favourite movie without splitting a list into genres, but if I had to arrive at one movie, it's The Road Warrior purely because of the sheer amount of times that I've watched it. Fury Road could well be another that I re-watch over and over again because, I suspect, I'll never get bored of it.
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