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Posted: |
Sep 27, 2018 - 6:53 PM
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By: |
The Mutant
(Member)
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I actually did this myself independently of TheMutant, just as a fun side project, for myself. I took a slightly different approach from TheMutant where I applied the score to the current cut of the picture rather than sometimes cutting the picture to match the music like he sometimes did in his versions on DailyMotion. My approach required quite a few cuts and adjustments to the music, but since I am a composer as well and am very familiar with Goldsmith's style, I was able to make the same kinds of cuts in the same places that Goldsmith might have, and I think in all but one case I was able to make the transitions so smoothly that they are unnoticeable and it sounds like the music was written that way, although I would still like to revisit that one spot to see if I can smooth it out a bit. I was also able to remove the Tyler score from most of the picture without interfering with the dialogue, although there are one or two spots where you can still hear it a tiny bit.
I can understand why Timeline had to be re-scored - when you plug in the music, it seems to work in most cases with just a couple slight adjustments, but there are many problems lurking below the surface. This becomes evident when noticing that Goldsmith had in some places alternated between the hero motif and the villain motif in quick succession, obviously associated with cuts in the visual between the heroes and the villain that were taking place around the same time. If you simply plug the music in, it is around the correct length, but the hero motif comes in at the wrong time (ex. when you see the villain, the villain motif stops and you hear the hero motif) and vice-versa. This shows that, even though the overall length of many scenes was not changed very much, the actual shots within the scene and cuts back and forth were sometimes changed drastically from the original. The result was that I sometimes had to chop the music up into small blocks and re-order those blocks from the soundtrack version, but again I was very careful to do it in a musical way where everything still flows and sounds like it was what was actually written for the film. I also learned from the experience which scenes must have been added when the reshoots were done after Goldsmith's version.
The best thing about the experience was I never previously noticed how motivically interconnected the music is throughout - Goldsmith uses a limited number of motifs everywhere, and it was only when I put it to picture that I really noticed how heavily everything was unified underneath the surface - it is really extraordinary. There is rarely a note that isn't organically deriven from one of the simple core motifs.
I don’t recall editing the film to match the music, . but I did edit the music to fit the scenes.
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Posted: |
Sep 27, 2018 - 7:03 PM
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By: |
mducharme
(Member)
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In a couple spots, you did edit the video very slightly. Specifically during the final battle scene, I had compared my version to yours, just to see if you had matched things better than I did in any cases (and this in fact was the case in at least one instance I can think of and I revised my edit because yours was clearly a better match), and was surprised that in a few cases even though we started the music at the same points and hit the same things, I had to edit it on mine to get it to fit and match the next hitpoint, whereas it seemed like yours fit without you having to make an edit in the music at the same spot. I watched it over and over again and couldn't quite figure out why it was fitting for you and not for me, it was driving me nuts. Finally, I resorted to exporting your video from dailymotion, and imported the video and audio into my project. Your soundtrack did not fit my video HD copy when I plugged it in alongside and tried to sync up the same moment in your soundtrack with my video file, and saw that the next hit was not synchronized with my video. I confirmed that you had made some slight edits when I put your copy of the video alongside mine and saw that, even though they matched up frame by frame up until the cut, your video sometimes cut to a different shot several frames before mine, so you certainly did do some video editing to make it fit. I know you also made edits to your music to get it to fit, but there were places where the music was hard to fit without adjusting the video (I know because I tried and nearly resorted to your solution in those spots), and those few places you had changed the video. There weren't many, but there were a few. One part specifically was during Decker's final fight with Marek, there is a shot where Claire stands up and looks at the two fighting and there is a shot from about 20 feet away of them fighting. Even though we both started the Marek/Decker battle at exact the same instant and the same moment of the soundtrack (I checked very carefully), your audio was about half a second from mine by the time the 20 foot away shot appears, about 1:36:44 in the picture.
The solution I wound up finding for the same scene was converting some 4/4 bars into 7/8, which fits Goldsmith's style due to his use of irregular and changing meter in action scenes. It sounds fine, like he wrote it that way, but it was very time consuming since I had to slice up each bar of music and shorten it by half a beat and crossfade and make sure that a note wasn't early or late.
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Posted: |
Sep 27, 2018 - 8:01 PM
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By: |
mducharme
(Member)
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Weird. It’s been so long but I honestly don’t remember editing the video other than splitting long scenes. Are you sure it isn’t a format/frame rate thing?
I did some pretty sly edits to the music.
I'm sure it isn't a frame rate issue because once I first noticed the discrepancy between your edit and mine I immediately wondered if that might be the case, and so I tried adjusting the video framerate settings for the project, but it made absolutely no difference with the audio sync. I can't be 100% certain that it isn't a format thing, but when I export the audio from my project and use a different video editor to sync it up with my HD video copy, everything matches. I wouldn't expect that to be the case if there were a major format or framerate issue.
If I import the Brian Tyler soundtrack CD audio cues into my project (placed to start at the same moment as the video soundtrack) it also correctly syncs with the Brian Tyler soundtrack in the film at the end of the cue. This all seems to indicate that my format and frame rate are correct. I had removed your video from my project but your audio is still there muted, I just double checked and at the shouts "archers to the battlements!" "oliver!" "kill her, now!" "arnauld!" "claire!" the audio is in sync with the video, but by the time Decker attacks Marek and Claire the audio is a few seconds out of sync with the video, this is especially obvious due to the dialogue and SFX not syncing.
Please do not take any offense to what I am saying, you did an amazing job regardless (and inspired me to attempt the same thing), and you did a few things better than me and I adjusted mine to match yours in those cases.
Also, if you would like, please feel free to contact me outside of the forum, my contact info is on my website (linked to my profile displayed when you click on my username).
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Posted: |
Oct 4, 2018 - 1:45 AM
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By: |
mducharme
(Member)
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Weird. It’s been so long but I honestly don’t remember editing the video other than splitting long scenes. Are you sure it isn’t a format/frame rate thing?
I did some pretty sly edits to the music.
I just wanted to follow-up, after your last post, I wanted to make certain I hadn't been the one who made a mistake, and it turns out I was - I finally figured out what happened.
For some reason a few years ago when I extracted the audio and video from the blu-ray to try to fit Goldsmith's score to the film, the extractor I used seems to have shortened the length of the film and audio by about 3 minutes (!!) and I never noticed. I had loaded a Brian Tyler cue on one channel at some point to compare, but didn't notice enough of a difference from the timing of the original that it seemed off, but I realize now I only listened to the first 30 seconds to a minute of the Brian Tyler cue, before the difference would have become audible.
Unfortunately this means I wound up cutting lots of 4/4 bars to 7/8 when it wasn't really necessary, and probably wasted dozens of hours doing so.
This means that your edits were probably to the original and correct length of the film, and mine were trying to fit the same music to an artificially shortened film length.
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