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 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 6:32 AM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)

I got both of these items in the mail yesterday, very fast from SAE (thanks !!).
Put on the cd first - oh my - we finally have some high end on this score. I didn't think it was possible. all sounds great. I had worried that all previous cds had an incorrect edit on The Attack - joining the rewrite to the original cue as if one long cue.
To my surprise, this has a NEW incorrect edit, joining the rewrite ( that is actually in the film) to something that sounds like a different version of the retreat !!!!!
Anyone involved, please explain and feel free to mention this was found in original paperwork or what ever. I almost hate to bring this up, as I am sure this will not bring me new friends.
Will this will all be debated, I loved the new cd. I loved the artwork as it is a 40 x 60 French poster I have on my wall for this film.
I then when fearfully on to the new blu ray. Why fearfully? Because one transfer after another over the years has disappointed me. They have not been sharp and all had lost the color blue. They also had a muffled stereo track.
But no! the dvd starts, the picture is sharp, the music comes in with the shot of planes in the sky. the music is bright and beautiful and the picture has blue !!!!!!!

I am sure that all of this is due to work of the great Shawn Belston, in charge of film restoration over at Fox for many years. He is my hero, as have has brought back to life many films I thought were dead in the water ( The Robe, The Egyptian, From the terrace, Kiss Them for Me).
And may thnks to Mike Mattesino for another wonderful restored Fox track. I hope he gets to work on Diary of Anne Frank some day.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 6:59 AM   
 By:   paul rossen   (Member)

I got both of these items in the mail yesterday, very fast from SAE (thanks !!).
Put on the cd first - oh my - we finally have some high end on this score. I didn't think it was possible. all sounds great. I had worried that all previous cds had an incorrect edit on The Attack - joining the rewrite to the original cue as if one long cue.
To my surprise, this has a NEW incorrect edit, joining the rewrite ( that is actually in the film) to something that sounds like a different version of the retreat !!!!!
Anyone involved, please explain and feel free to mention this was found in original paperwork or what ever. I almost hate to bring this up, as I am sure this will not bring me new friends.
Will this will all be debated, I loved the new cd. I loved the artwork as it is a 40 x 60 French poster I have on my wall for this film.
I then when fearfully on to the new blu ray. Why fearfully? Because one transfer after another over the years has disappointed me. They have not been sharp and all had lost the color blue. They also had a muffled stereo track.
But no! the dvd starts, the picture is sharp, the music comes in with the shot of planes in the sky. the music is bright and beautiful and the picture has blue !!!!!!!

I am sure that all of this is due to work of the great Shawn Belston, in charge of film restoration over at Fox for many years. He is my hero, as have has brought back to life many films I thought were dead in the water ( The Robe, The Egyptian, From the terrace, Kiss Them for Me).
And may thnks to Mike Mattesino for another wonderful restored Fox track. I hope he gets to work on Diary of Anne Frank some day.





If you like the TT Blu-ray of THE BLUE MAX try out the Fox blu-ray of THE AGONY and the ECSTASY!
It's amazing.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 7:07 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Joe, you've mentioned a composite for 'The Attack' so many times now, I couldn't even begin to wonder what snippets are involved.

For my own part, the Intrada was the first instance of my coming across something other than the track called 'Battle.' The Attack consists of the militaristic percussion and two instances of brass performing variations of the Blue Max theme - then followed by the piece called 'Battle,' with no break between both parts. I always thought this was correct because that is as close as it gets in the movie. Even then, the film has a bit of music shorn off the entry (as Bruno looks up and pulls his plane around to engage) so that when the first part of 'The Attack' has played through, we only get the tiniest end portion of 'Battle' to wrap up the montaged aerial dogfighting sequence.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 7:14 AM   
 By:   Wedge   (Member)

Nothing is edited wrong, and nothing is missing. LLL's set includes three versions of the cue:

1. The version Goldsmith originally wrote, and which was later used for his concert suite. This appears on Disc 2, Track 23.

2. The version with the revised opening, presented as it was MEANT to be edited. This particular assembly has never been released before, and appears on Disc 1, Track 9.

3. The version that takes the revised opening and splices it onto the beginning of the original version as if they were one long cue. This appears as a bonus track, on Disc 2, Track 26.

At no point on LLL's set does the revised opening of "The Attack" segue into ANY version of "The Retreat." If you listen again, the last 4:33 of each of the above tracks is IDENTICAL.

The film edit of this cue is a horribly cut-down and misaligned version that Goldsmith never intended, so disregard what you hear in the film.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 7:21 AM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

Mr. Takis is completely right of course, and it's worth additionally mentioning that the "super long" version - his point #3 above, which appears on the LLL Disc 2 Track 26 - is what Intrada did for their "The Attack" (track 6).

Here, this spreadsheet I put together should clear up everything:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AjiRtgP4_o4TdGZoMWhFaFlGOVhodnVjTXgybE4yTVE&output=html

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 7:48 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

From what I can deduce, the LLL newbie has the concert piece which at one time was simply called 'Battle' on disc 1, track 9. This is how I originally became familiarised with it from the Citadel LP.

Years later, in 1987 (almost to my disbelief), I found myself at the Barbican concert hall in my first face to face with the maestro and the London Philharmonia, to hear it live. The programme listed it as 'Battle.' Had it been called 'The Attack,' any initial confusion would have given way to immediate realisation the piece has different names for precise indexing purposes in different circumstances.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 8:10 AM   
 By:   Wedge   (Member)

Grecchus: you are mistaken. LLL's Disc 1, Track 9 assembly of "The Attack" was not on the Citadel LP. It has never been released on an album prior to now.

The Citadel version of "The Attack" was titled "Passacaglia" (even though that designation would more accurately apply to "The Retreat") and it was the original version of "The Attack," with no revised opening attached.

The Citadel LP cue originally designated "Battle" was in two parts, and was in fact the two parts of "The Retreat." (A later Citadel pressing does appear to have reassigned the "Battle" designation to "The Attack.")

It is possible to recreate the Citadel LP program using the LLL set, but Disc 1, Track 9 would not be on that playlist.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 8:25 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

I feel like I'm sitting down to the most complicated spaghetti meal ever encountered. The only way to be sure what's what is to hear the score one track at a time on all the sources. Clearly, the use of two monikers for what essentially comprises a single body of music (in the main) has generated a lot of spurious confusion. But make no mistake - the cues known as 'Battle' and 'The Attack' are essentially the same body of music with various edits being the cause of any confusion between them. The combined 'Retreat' (parts 1 & 2) have nothing to do with either 'The Attack' or 'Battle' depending on which names have been selected for whatever release you'd care to mention.

With Battle/The Attack we are talking about the first part of the film up to the intermission. The Retreat cues come after the intermission, for the purpose of simple segregation of those pieces of music.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 8:36 AM   
 By:   Wedge   (Member)

But make no mistake - the cues known as 'Battle' and 'The Attack' are essentially the same body of music with various edits being the cause of any confusion between them. The combined 'Retreat' (parts 1 & 2) have nothing to do with either 'The Attack' or 'Battle' depending on which names have been selected for whatever release you'd care to mention.

This is incorrect. On the original 1966 Mainstream LP (and at least the initial Citadel LP pressings) the cue title "Battle" was applied to "The Retreat." LLL did not take anyone's word for this ... they sought out and transferred copies of the original LPs for careful comparison.

The 1979 Citadel repressing appears to have changed some track titles, with "Battle" getting reassigned to what was actually "The Attack." This may be the source of the confusion.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 8:37 AM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

Grecchus, I am flabbergasted you are still confused or think that anything is missing on the LLL CD.

What part of my spreadsheet does not make everything clear to you?

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 8:42 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

OK Wedge. I'll put like with like just as soon as I am able from all the sources available to me and only then will I be in a position to "map the deck," so to speak. I don't have the full hand just yet, so I'll have to wait in silence . . . till then. smile

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 8:45 AM   
 By:   Wedge   (Member)

Jason, I think Grecchus is just trying to piece together the nomenclature and how the LLL set lines up with the LP he remembers and the concert he attended. It doesn't help that the Citadel had various pressings over the years, and the cue titling was inconsistent. (I believe there was even a misprint in the track order on the very first Citadel pressing.)

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 11:25 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

I posted this reference in the initial LLL Blue Max thread :-

http://www.discogs.com/Jerry-Goldsmith-The-Blue-Max/release/3135733

If you click on all The Blue Max entries it becomes clear there is enough ambiguity in the different cue titles to try the patience of Job. The Mainstream 1966 albums (stereo and mono) are apparently referring to The Retreat (both parts) as Battle, with a combined duration of 7:25. There is a reference to Retreat at 1:23. God knows what that is referencing? Would that be The Attack Part 1, I wonder?

A decade later, the Citadel 1976 album refers to both Retreat cues as Battle, Part One and Battle, Part Two. The same album refers to The Attack as Passacaglia although there's nothing in the track listing to strictly confirm this.

In 1979, the Citadel refers to The Attack as Battle, with The Retreat Part one and The Retreat Part two. This is the album I have in my collection. I'm now doubting the cue titles from the 1987 concert from memory, however, my strongest recollection is that The Attack/Passacaglia was written down as Battle. This seems to be where the error in naming took place.

Next, on the Varese Sarabande CD from 1985 we have the first clear distinctions in titles because listed are The Attack (Parts 1 & 2) as well as The Retreat (Parts 1 & 2).

In 2010 came the Intrada with The Attack and Retreat implicitly combining Parts 1 & 2. In other words, both were the long versions.

The next is the LLL and boy, would I like to get my hands on those liner notes as of right now.

The 1987 concert must have used the 1979 LP track listed cues to name the suite from The Blue Max, so that must be why I've always thought of The Attack as Battle. Or it could just be that when I heard The Attack/Passacaglia I immediately placed it as Battle. Easily done. I'm also wondering if JG chewed some official up way back then but didn't say a thing during the concert because, hey, after all . . . what do they (we) know . . . big grin

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 11:44 AM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

There certainly have been many different LPs and CDs throughout the years, and many different configurations of cues. But Neil and Mike made sure that the LLL CD contains every permutation of them all, and isn't missing anything Goldsmith recorded.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 11:55 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Because Jason, as demonstrated, I'm a typical soundtrack nut and have to check every bolt myself. And if I didn't trust anyone, my collection would contain zero items.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 3:30 PM   
 By:   James Corry   (Member)

Lets have another drink......

J.

 
 Posted:   Mar 4, 2014 - 5:47 PM   
 By:   Neil S. Bulk   (Member)

To my surprise, this has a NEW incorrect edit, joining the rewrite ( that is actually in the film) to something that sounds like a different version of the retreat !!!!!
Anyone involved, please explain and feel free to mention this was found in original paperwork or what ever.


The revised opening for "The Attack" (disc 1, track 9) is edited as intended on the new La-La Land release. The liner notes explain all of this and the isolated score tracks on the new Blu-ray confirm it. The problem is that in the film, that new intro is moved to another position in the film, causing the confusion. This tracking is also mentioned in the liner notes.

As for thinking it's cut onto another version of "The Attack" that's incorrect. All we had of the full cue was the one take heard on all of the previous releases.

Neil

 
 Posted:   Mar 5, 2014 - 3:54 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Lets have another drink......

J.


Splendid! I'll have a Grand Marnier. "Down with the Hun." cool

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 5, 2014 - 6:19 AM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)

Neil. thanks for the reply. I always thought the short rewrite of the attack was as it should be in the final film - not attached to anything else as it is on both older cds and now attached to something else on the new cd.
Cant imagine how Jerry felt seeing all of this music cut from the film ( and I think the film NEEDS this score).

 
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