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 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 12:29 AM   
 By:   kingtolkien   (Member)

I know that this a gossip subject but after reading the new John Williams book I was very much disappointed by Ennio Morricone who said that the Star Wars score wasn't any good and that a fugue would be more proper for the main title. He also dismisses all composers who use orchestrators. Of course we all know that in some cases orchestrators do most of the job but in most cases orchestrators are just glorified copyists. I think it's envy speaking. In a John Scott interview that I read a while ago he said that Williams was just a good arranger and that he knew him just as an arranger. I was disappointed by these remarks. Of course it's very easy to attack Williams because he is the most successful of all film composers.
Of course there are excellent remarks from film composers about their colleagues.
Like the one by Mancini for Goldsmith. That everybody is scared of his talent.
Anyway do you know any other such stories?

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 12:52 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

Which book are you refering to? The one from Emilio Audissino?

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 1:04 AM   
 By:   kingtolkien   (Member)

Yes.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 3:52 AM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

He also dismisses all composers who use orchestrators.

I wouldn't call this jealousy, Morricone has every right to express such an opinion given that he doesn't rely on them IMO.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 3:58 AM   
 By:   Mr Drive   (Member)

I sure would have liked to hear his Star Wars Fugue!

As for jealousy, I vaguely remember some bitching from Leonard Rosenman - about Poledouris, among others. I found it slightly irritating, especially because I dearly loved everything that Poledouris did, more than most of Rosenmans own stuff.

But film composers are no ideal people, not more than anyone else. Makes me think of the composers & politics thread, a lot of info there I probably don't want to know. Better keep listening to & enjoying the music.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:23 AM   
 By:   batman&robin   (Member)

I sure would have liked to hear his Star Wars Fugue!

I sure would NOT!

Think about Hundra...

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:39 AM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

I sure would have liked to hear his Star Wars Fugue!

I sure would NOT!

Think about Hundra...



Or better yet, listen to The Humanoid. A magnificent score for a terrible SW rip off. And not particularly Williams-like.

But even as one of Morricone's tallest fans, I can't imagine anyone but JW scoring it. I'm limited by my own musical imagination, though - Morricone's musical opinions hold more water than mine any old day of the week.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:39 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

It's been an open secret for years that Morricone has been dismissive of composers who don't orchestrate. I certainly don't think it has anything to do with envy. He has been condescending in the past about a successful composer who doesn't orchestrate, though Williams wasn't mentioned by name. Unbelievable as it may seem, there are people who exist that don't like the 'Star Wars' scores. Some are even on this board...

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:44 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)


I wouldn't call this jealousy, Morricone has every right to express such an opinion given that he doesn't rely on them IMO.


He used to rely on Bruno Nicolai, but I agree that the greatest living film composer (in my opinion) should be able to state his preferences.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:44 AM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

I know that this a gossip subject but after reading the new John Williams book I was very much disappointed by Ennio Morricone who said that the Star Wars score wasn't any good and that a fugue would be more proper for the main title. He also dismisses all composers who use orchestrators. Of course we all know that in some cases orchestrators do most of the job but in most cases orchestrators are just glorified copyists. I think it's envy speaking. In a John Scott interview that I read a while ago he said that Williams was just a good arranger and that he knew him just as an arranger. I was disappointed by these remarks. Of course it's very easy to attack Williams because he is the most successful of all film composers.

I get the distict impression that these "quotes" have been taken out of context, and perhaps even poorly translated at some point down the line, thus they may be missing some nuance. The comment attributed to Scott I find particularly hard to entirely believe - it simply doesn't make sense at all.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:45 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

I don't think Morricone's comments about "Star Wars" amounts to jealousy, just disagreement.

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:47 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

The only time I recall words like "jealousy" or "envy" being used was that reference that Jerry Goldsmith was envious of John Barry's facility for simplicity.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:49 AM   
 By:   mrchriswell   (Member)

I wish I could tell folks where to look but there's a great interview with Bernard Herrmann's widow somewhere where she tells all about who he respected and didn't. No love lost there between Bennie and Andre Previn, apparently. And he keenly resented Quincy Jones for commanding and getting a higher fee than he could, at least for a time. He did respect Jerry Goldsmith and Howard Blake. Can't remember who else was mentioned.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:54 AM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

(Morricone) also dismisses all composers who use orchestrators. Of course we all know that in some cases orchestrators do most of the job but in most cases orchestrators are just glorified copyists. I think it's envy speaking.


I don't think Morricone has anything to be envious about. Wildly talented, rich and successful, the composer of choice for many respected directors, arguably the most sought after composer for films in the western world over the last fifty years (and indisputably one of them), multiple covers of many of his compositions by all stripes of musician from John Zorn to Sarah Brightman to Metallica, and the required use of water cannons just to control the crowd when his concert tickets go on sale...

I guess his view is that once a choice - any choice at all - is made not by the composer but by another person, it ceases to be 100% your creation. I can respect that. Shostakovich thought the same, by all accounts. I fell deeply in love with their music in both cases before I knew that fact about either of them.

And both took/take their music very seriously. If it were possible to speak to them in a common language, it wouldn't take 30 seconds for me to be utterly lost in musical theory.

Interestingly, for some time it was common currency that Bartok envied Shostakovich his success, the main evidence being the grotesque parody of the invasion march from the 7th symphony in Bartok's concerto for orchestra. I believe it's now known that it was Bartok's brother, or agent, or similar, who started that rumour for their own reasons.

All the truly talented people I've known in any field have been totally secure in their own ability, and rather than being jealous simply strive harder if they perceive a better practitioner than themselves.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 4:56 AM   
 By:   mrchriswell   (Member)

The only reason to go on the record about not liking Williams Star Wars score, given its success, is jealously. Ennio is human and that kind of outsize success that seems to redefine everything makes the whole world turn to the competition and say, "Well, what have you got?" Stuck in his craw, I'd say. It's OK, really. I do notice that when Morricone has done space movies he went as far away from Williams as possible.

Also, some composers don't name names but you get the gist. Jerome Moross talked about his approach to Big Country and the western genre by noting how the pervading Hollywood style for oaters was all wrong. Hello, Dimitri!

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 5:01 AM   
 By:   Timmer   (Member)

To Tall Guy's post -
^
Yeah that!

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 5:05 AM   
 By:   Timmer   (Member)

As for jealousy, I vaguely remember some bitching from Leonard Rosenman - about Poledouris, among others. I found it slightly irritating, especially because I dearly loved everything that Poledouris did, more than most of Rosenmans own stuff.

Howard Blake ( he conducted Robocop ) was very disparaging of Poledouris score too as I remember? Anyone here remember more?


On a positive note, I once read an interview with John Barry where he said John Williams has never written a bad score smile

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 5:11 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

The only reason to go on the record about not liking Williams Star Wars score, given its success, is jealously

Not sure about that. It may have been successful and appealed to the "masses", but does that mean it's good and he has to like it?

 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 5:31 AM   
 By:   LeHah   (Member)

It's been an open secret for years that Morricone has been dismissive of composers who don't orchestrate.

Bernard Herrmann voiced the same opinion.

There is a fine line though. John Williams uses orchestrators because of deadlines, while other composers (who I will not name) have orchestrators because they're not very adept composers.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 7, 2014 - 5:31 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

The only reason to go on the record about not liking Williams Star Wars score, given its success, is jealously.

There are all kinds of reasons that a composer can criticize a piece of music. Not everyone's musical universe revolves around Star Wars.

 
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