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 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 1:37 AM   
 By:   Zooba   (Member)

This was a question I posted in my "Out of Nowhere Star Trek" post, but wanted to give it it's own spotlight here. Curious to hear your thoughts:


Anyone else almost start laughing at Spock's funeral in WRATH OF KHAN when Scotty shows up in full kilt and starts playing "Amazing Grace" on the bagpipes? Certainly no disrespect for Scotty, kilts, bagpipes or that song but I just remember being in the theater and feeling it just felt strangely "out of place" for "Spock" to have that music. When Horner picks up the cue and it swells it sort of kind of works and yet that initial sound of the pipes just made me think, shouldn't they have played the Vulcan National Anthem or something more appropriate for Spock? As left in the film it just seemed a tad jarring to me. If it were Scotty's death I could totally buy into it. Wonder what an Original Horner cue of sadness might have sounded like and wonder if he actually wrote one that was thrown out? Now that'd be fun to hear. Sure it would be a tear jerker and a half.

Just another random STAR TREK thought from the Zoob.

Your thoughts?



I mean, couldn't another Vulcan on board play something on the Vulcan Harp or Uhura sing "Beyond Antares" for our pointed ear friend's send off?

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 1:51 AM   
 By:   Mike_J   (Member)

I personally like the touch (especially when the orchestra takes over from the bagpipes) although it is slightly ruined by the fact that Doohan looks as if he has never held bagpipes in his life let alone played them.

However, every time I saw the film at the cinema, the whole audience erupted into laughter.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 1:55 AM   
 By:   Zooba   (Member)

I personally like the touch (especially when the orchestra takes over from the bagpipes) although it is slightly ruined by the fact that Doohan looks as if he has never held bagpipes in his life let alone played them.

However, every time I saw the film at the cinema, the whole audience erupted into laughter.


Interesting isn't it? Wonder if they had any test screenings and the people laughed? It is just so unexpected and I think for most it just seems funny. I remember being in the theater and my mouth just opened up and I was like WTF? It was so silly. But then Horner's taking over of the theme was quite beautiful. For a moment there I thought they were going to bring Finnigan back from the Original series to do a little Jig!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 2:02 AM   
 By:   Zooba   (Member)

I guess it was sort of like when this guy showed up at Darth Vader's funeral in RETURN OF THE JEDI:

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 2:06 AM   
 By:   Zooba   (Member)

Here's the cue from the film which actually starts off with 18 seconds of beautiful sad Horner and then those jarring Pipes come in, where I just totally go into WTF mode and then going into Horner's glorious version of Amazing Grace. Perhaps it was the awkward mix that gets the goofy reaction? I really am curious if Horner wrote a touching cue that had no reference to Amazing Grace. I mean Scotty could have still wore his kilt. Just don't bring the pipes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqxRg_lxOqY

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 7:07 AM   
 By:   David Kessler   (Member)

Funny , but this is the best part in any Star Trek movie or series and a tearjerker...If i had seen the movie back in 82? when it arrived and people had laughed at that moment, I would have taken my bazooka and blown the theatre to pieces...damn how respectless too laugh when the makers of that movie certainly didnĀ“t had that intention (and neither did Horner, I hope)
A great sendoff for Spock ...

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 7:30 AM   
 By:   other tallguy   (Member)

I guess it was sort of like when this guy showed up at Darth Vader's funeral in RETURN OF THE JEDI:



I don't recall stormtroopers in previous films wearing kilts. Scotty, OTOH had worn one before. Twice.

I never heard the audience laugh. (Although there were some tearful giggles when Saavik changed her hair. Again.)

Amazing Grace would mean something to most of the audience. Beyond Antares (which is a terrible song) would not have.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 7:34 AM   
 By:   BrenKel   (Member)

I have read somewhere (probably in the cd notes) that Horner did not want the bagpipes or Amazing Grace. If anything was written in its place I doubt it was recorded...but you never know.

Personally, I think it does work but would have preferred a Horner original cue.

Still the best Trek score ever written (now ducks!!).

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 7:45 AM   
 By:   Warunsun   (Member)

I remember my father remarking that he was confused with the bag pipe music and thought that Mr Scott had died also. Obviously, Mr Scott is playing the pipes but first time around it was all brand new and I think it was first screened locally outside at a drive-in.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 8:34 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

I personally like the touch (especially when the orchestra takes over from the bagpipes) although it is slightly ruined by the fact that Doohan looks as if he has never held bagpipes in his life let alone played them.

However, every time I saw the film at the cinema, the whole audience erupted into laughter.


Interesting isn't it? Wonder if they had any test screenings and the people laughed? It is just so unexpected and I think for most it just seems funny. I remember being in the theater and my mouth just opened up and I was like WTF? It was so silly. But then Horner's taking over of the theme was quite beautiful. For a moment there I thought they were going to bring Finnigan back from the Original series to do a little Jig!


Yes, they did have test screenings and the audience did laugh "unexpectedly". Paraphrasing the story here but the director and producer shrugged their shoulders in disbelief, and kept it in anyway. Go figure. roll eyes

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 8:40 AM   
 By:   Adam.   (Member)

I saw the film many times in the theaters in 1982 and no one ever laughed during that sequence. Personally, I hate bagpipes so I wished it had been done another way but it's only 20 seconds out of the film so I can live with it.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 8:46 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Well, if you consider how many weddings are held the world over with all the males in kilts and Charlie jackets and regalia, irrespective of nationality or relevance then it'll seem less improbable. The assumption is that Scotty is performing his own tribute.

As regards the 'Vulcan national anthem', well, it'd need to be a Vulcan global anthem since, unless we're working on some dystopic allegorical plane of metaphor, everybody knows that in sci-fi, nations and races on any given planet somehow don't vary! Earth may have many races, nations etc. but somehow these alien evolutions produce strangely homogenised people. You don't get any make-up awards for the other Vulcan tribe with the short ears and downward sloping eyebrows who live over the hill and have a different national anthem.

Come to think on it, the TOS Spock belonged to a race too logical for displays of emotion at funerals (unless it's Amok time) whereas he later, by the time of the movies, belongs to a race of mystics who probably chant some Tibetanesque thing. Such is script development.

I'd imagine the decision was taken at script stage long before JH was involved, and an opportunity to place an idea of the past and continuity in the future world. Many films forget to do this, presenting some gleaming futuristic world where nobody makes reference to even the 20th or 21st centuries, let alone previous ones, like we all do regularly without being aware of it.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 9:25 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

You realise of course that the late, great Peter O'Toole was an official world champion bagpiper at one stage in his career. Check it out.

Most of the disdain many people have for the bagpipes stems from the cliched use of such in media. In their proper historical context and military connection, they're interesting. I once disliked them, then suddenly one day realised their whole romantic connotations and that makes a difference ... context.

Many Scots AFFECT either a great love for, or a great hatred of, the bagpipes, largely based on their embracing or rejection of the STEREOTYPE of Scottish trappings. But that's through a haze of self-image and self-consciousness, not objective and both camps are generally trying to look cool. Maybe there's a concerto for bagpipe and orchestra somewhere.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 12:29 PM   
 By:   Moviedrone   (Member)

It's a beautiful moment, and the following reading of Amazing Grace is just perfect.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 12:55 PM   
 By:   sr-miller   (Member)

I've seen the movie at the theater and at home and I never recall any laughter at this point, neither did it strike me as funny. I took it to be Mr. Scott paying sincere respects in the way that he knew how.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 12:58 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with those who felt this was a comedic moment. In fact, I feel sad that a whole theaterful of people could be that jaded and cynical. One might wonder what they are doing at a Star Trek movie in the first place.

As to the song itself, Spock frequently demonstrated a knowledge of human history and cultures that often exceeded that of the humans he was talking to... so it's no long stretch of the imagination that he'd find the use of the song appropriate. Not to mention that, after all, he was half-human. And, as it was said elsewhere, it was likely Scotty's personal tribute.

Secondly, all the glimpses into Scotty's personal life that we were afforded gives us more than enough evidence that he'd be versed in playing the pipes. His quarters alone contained plenty of trad Scot "accoutrements". Just because it was never portrayed on screen before doesn't mean it's not part of the character's makeup.

As it's used in the movie and score... beautiful and touching.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 1:19 PM   
 By:   MikeP   (Member)

I saw the movie twice in packed theaters. No one ever laughed.

Today's hipster internet aint-it-cool generation though...


 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 2:19 PM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

Considering Kirk says that Spock's Vulcan soul was the most "human" he'd known - the bagpipes just sealed the "who cares if you're Vulcan?" deal.

I know, I know, he's half-Vulcan, but he certainly self-identified on his father's side.

Snark aside, I actually think it's a sweet moment, and a sweet revelation of the human-centric crew's need to frame the intergalactic issues they face with a more familiar referent. And a nice way for the audience to relate to outre sci-fi ideas.

And I'm guessing Spock's eyebrow elevated from beyond the grave.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 2:38 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

I saw the film on its initial release in a theater in San Francisco, and by that point in the film the audience was so stoned that they couldn't muster up the energy for much of any reaction, let alone laughter.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2014 - 4:10 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

I remember seeing the film at least twice in the theater and both times the entire audience went into an uncontrollable snicker. It was like a Monty Python skit sneaked it's way into the film!

 
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