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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 4:49 AM
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By: |
Graham Watt
(Member)
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interesting... thanks for that - i'm afraid i can't say if your theory holds any water or not, because i always thought that quite a large proportion of jerry goldsmith's melodies were actually quite banal, even clumsy-sounding. don't get me wrong - he's one of my favourite composers, but for me a lot of his best scores are the ones which don't rely too much on a theme, in inverted commas, but more on hugely inventive instrumentation, ornamentation and rhythm - i could never feel comfortable with his theme for rudy for example... it's nice, but after part a, part b is sorely underdeveloped before going back to part a... and it's way too sugary anyway, but i know i'm in a minority there.... i'm even more of a minority when i admit that i was never totally convinced by the thematic material for the main titles to either star trek or supergirl - or king soloman's mines etc. but i still love so much of his work, particularly from the period of roughly '64 to '79, but not for their spinster-pleasing themes, one aspect of his scores he liked to play up in some of his concerts - with even more unnecessarily lush strings. but you have found a theory which explains why you like them, while i still have to figure out what makes me feel awkward listening to them. by the way, what are the two iconic themes which you highlight and which you say never appealed to you... i don't read music. and sorry if this is sore on your eyes - it's more sore on my one finger - insert smiley.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 5:18 AM
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By: |
Tall Guy
(Member)
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by the way, what are the two iconic themes which you highlight and which you say never appealed to you... i don't read music. and sorry if this is sore on your eyes - it's more sore on my one finger - insert smiley. Superman and Star Wars, by the looks of it. Graham, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. It's all subjective, of course, but I've been musing in recent days on three different approaches to Star Trek - Courage, Goldsmith, Giacchino. The AC and MG themes are probably simpler than JG's, but for me they both sound as if they're reaching out into space, where the JG turns back in on itself and ends up not in the stratosphere but back where it started. It's more militaristic, as well, rather than adventurous. It may be telling that MG incorporated TOS music rather than JG's later efforts, but that could also be an imperative of the new films' places in the canon. I think JG's at his best in his psychological and less melodic moods - Satan Bug, The Omen, Luckily, this suits his theme and variation approach. Off topic - ironic that you currently have the time to provide longer insights into your world, while simultaneously having less facility to do so.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 5:40 AM
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By: |
Graham Watt
(Member)
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well, i'm officially off work, tg, and so can ponder the wonders of the universe and stare at a computer screen more... hell of a strain on the neck muscles though, all this typing... the finger bone must be connected to the neck bone. yeah, i managed to work out star wars after i posted the question - it took me a few minutes of craning and mumbling, but i got there. here's a funny little addition - i think that john williams is far better - in inverted commas, if i could do them - than jerry goldsmith at themes... but i still find a certain awkwardness in star wars and superman - they're not anywhere near as forced, inverted commas, as goldsmith's themes, but they share a certain... don't know what... they make me slighly cringe, but that might be due to overexposure, plus a certain recently-acquired allergy to bold heroic or superhero stuff. sorry, that was a mini-rabbit... maybe someone would like to follow up the op's ideas expressed in the blog link... i'm still pondering it... and it would be a pity if it fell into a goldsmith vs williams thread... although i started it. blimey, must lie down for a bit.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 6:04 AM
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By: |
zhao1701
(Member)
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Hi Graham! Thanks for reading, and you're right that the thesis comes off a bit strong. It really is just a personal preference at the end of the day. I'm actually very interested in why you don't like his themes. The idea of not liking a Goldsmith theme is so foreign to me, that I'm really intrigued by what you would consider their failings. I could actually see how Supergirl might fail to be appealing to some - rhythmically it just sort of prances along, but Star Trek is nearly perfect in my book - great rhythmic diversity, exciting orchestration, amazing countermelodies. I remember also coming across a post where someone was saying that Goldsmith's Star Trek Voyager theme was too simple and plodding, but I thought it was the slow evenness that so expressed the majesty of the opening sequence. Anyways, could it be that you like your themes to rhythmically sharper, or maybe just more catchy and repetitive? Also, full disclosure - I don't actually listen to much of his early work 64-79. I always intend to and often try, but end up just going to one of his 90's "streamlined" scores instead. Star Trek Nemesis was actually what got me into Jerry Goldsmith, a score I know a lot of people find lacking. Hey Tall Guy, It's a really interesting point you've made that I've never thought about, and I think you're right. JG's Star Trek theme is much more adventurous and doesn't really evoke space at all whereas MG's does. Don't you find it funny then that main theme aside, JG's scores for Star Trek are much more evocative of space where as MG's (main theme aside) focus more on the action/adventure and leave out the romance/mystery/terror of being in outer space? Re: less facility - I come from the angle that nearly everyone has less facility than Goldsmith, so I don't mind writing about what I learn as I try to get better at what I do. But time is most certainly an issue. O_o
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 9:19 AM
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By: |
Graham Watt
(Member)
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but i struggle on, tg..., so here i am again. zhao - i can't really be more precise than i have already been about what i think to be one of goldsmith's weaknesses... he's still one of my favourite composers, but my reasons for liking him are not the same as why i love henry mancini for example. as for star trek the motion picture, i don't know - it's not as if i dislike it... the majority of the score is very good, and i love the way the theme develops slowly in the lengthy sequence where the crew are getting a tour the new ship from outside... but as heard in the titles it just sounds a bit too forceful or something, almost as if it were a good, flexible secondary theme which got an unnecessary raise-the-roof treatment... i don't want to go on too much about that, because i don't even know myself if i really mean what i'm writing... i'm just not expressing myself well. much more interesting would be if you, or anyone, could give more examples of scores or themes which have that downbeat on a different note each time, perhaps with titles from other composers... i see you did bear mccreary, but more would help me understand the concept better.
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interesting... thanks for that - i'm afraid i can't say if your theory holds any water or not, because i always thought that quite a large proportion of jerry goldsmith's melodies were actually quite banal, even clumsy-sounding. don't get me wrong - he's one of my favourite composers, but for me a lot of his best scores are the ones which don't rely too much on a theme, in inverted commas, but more on hugely inventive instrumentation, ornamentation and rhythm Totally agree. If I want great melodies, I go to John Williams or James Horner or Ennio Morricone. JG is more about cool textures and riffs, IMO. I´m a hardcore Williams fan, and his melodies are sublime. But Goldsmith has composed so many (if not more) beautiful and haunting melodies, he is at least equal to Williams.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 10:34 AM
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By: |
zhao1701
(Member)
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interesting... thanks for that - i'm afraid i can't say if your theory holds any water or not, because i always thought that quite a large proportion of jerry goldsmith's melodies were actually quite banal, even clumsy-sounding. don't get me wrong - he's one of my favourite composers, but for me a lot of his best scores are the ones which don't rely too much on a theme, in inverted commas, but more on hugely inventive instrumentation, ornamentation and rhythm Totally agree. If I want great melodies, I go to John Williams or James Horner or Ennio Morricone. JG is more about cool textures and riffs, IMO. I´m a hardcore Williams fan, and his melodies are sublime. But Goldsmith has composed so many (if not more) beautiful and haunting melodies, he is at least equal to Williams. I think the even bigger ingredient to Jerry's melodies that make them so emotive that I didn't touch at all upon are his modulating B sections. Nearly every theme of his has a middle section where I can't figure what key he's in and can't understand his chord changes, and those are the sections that pack a wallop. In my listening library, which admittedly doesn't have many soundtracks before the 70s and is thin on Williams' scores, there isn't another film composer that does this.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 11:44 AM
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By: |
Tall Guy
(Member)
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here's a funny little addition - i think that john williams is far better - in inverted commas, if i could do them - than jerry goldsmith at themes... but i still find a certain awkwardness in star wars and superman - they're not anywhere near as forced, inverted commas, as goldsmith's themes, but they share a certain... don't know what... they make me slighly cringe, but that might be due to overexposure, plus a certain recently-acquired allergy to bold heroic or superhero stuff. Graham, to pick up on your petit lapin I wouldn't list Star Wars, Superman or indeed any of JW's real blockbusters in my top 10 of his scores. In fact, there's a thread to that effect somewhere that would prove it. Over-exposure has something to do with it, perhaps, but the big bombastic stuff doesn't compare with the 19th and 20th century symphonies that I listen to - just as the vast majority of action music written by anyone anywhere pales against Shostakovich's 7th, 8th, 10th and 11th symphonies. On the other hand, I can think of a couple of Williams tunes that are absolutely sublime - the ballroom theme in Witches of Eastwick and the song from AI, for example - which are unlike anything I've heard from JG. My top melodicists in film music remain Barry, Morricone and Mancini, not just in the quality of their top tunes, but in the sheer number of them, decade after decade.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:57 PM
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By: |
Graham Watt
(Member)
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yes tg - i wouldn't put williams' star wars or superman - or indiana jones in my top 10 faves, but all these scores have many wonderful tracks... it may be that the main themes themselves have to be almost deliberately over the top in all cases, and i must say williams captures the essence of each movie in an almost uncanny way, even if the result can be borderline annoying. zhao - interesting that you mention indiana jones as a theme which follows the supergirl and star trek pattern... i wonder how many scores do not follow the pattern you mention... you mention both star wars and superman... do you like the indy theme better - sorry, i can't do a question mark. you also mention how jerry goldsmith's b parts have a special effect on you... again, i think they are one of his weaknesses - they often have very little connection with part a, and are frequently underdeveloped, just resolving back to part a without having done much - i mentioned rudy as a culprit before, but i could add the edge, or even undisputed masterpieces such as patton - just try singing those b parts... i think i respond more to long-line melodies, and jerry goldsmith did surprisingly few of these... don't kill me, people - he's still one of my favourite composers. i wonder how much of what zhao expressed in his blog - about downbeats emphasising a different note each time - is a mathematical thing which causes a neurological response... but we're all different.
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One note on the blog post. The theme from The River Wild is not by Jerry Goldsmith - it's The Water is Wide, a Scottish folk song. As we've been talking about in the re-release thread, he was asked to use this by the filmmakers. It is true that a lot of Goldsmith's melodies are folk like - short phrases linked together, with lots of repetition. Of course that's true for many - most - movie themes. My view is that Goldsmith's great strength was coming up with terrific short musical motifs or ideas that he could arrange and bend and pull apart in many different ways, and give each movie it's own musical signature. For me his themes encompass the spectrum from the sublime to the banal.
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