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Posted: |
Apr 25, 2015 - 2:45 PM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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That rhythmic S.H.I.E.L.D. idea is butchered for like two bars into something different entirely in "The Battle".
"Helicarrier" returns in a new recording in Tyler's "Outlook",, but Silvestri is not credited for it anywhere,, and there are
another few bars in Tyler's track "Uprising" from Silvestri's finale, just newly recorded.
So Tyler got replaced, but what is left from him on the soundtrack has some snippets by Silvestri he had
to copy-and-paste into his music and rerecord...
Reviews say there is a lot more which is tracked, "I got a ride".
This is very disrespectful IMO, to the composer, to the music.
A good composer could least write the same old cue with some interesting new variations, some new
voicings, orchestrations, an added counterpoint, and could integrate it in the new big picture.
but I guess even that is not satisfying for the filmmakers when they got used
to their temp so much, and thinking from moment to moment only.
Music is treated just an interchangeable topping, scene to scene.
Though the end result overall is by far not disappointing IMO.
I have to say I like the score.
But to prefer to track when there are composerS at hand...
Probably the changes where so late
Is Thor's theme somewhere in the film?
The ending of "The Battle" features the rhythmic intro to it.
Iron Man's is in music by Tyler and Elfman
I wonder why there are Elfman tracks on the soundtrack which are not in the film,
since Elfman replaced some of Tyler's music...
"Inevitability.." is a hell of a cue, featuring Iron Man's theme, a bold condensed statement of
Silvestri's Avengers theme, using the first four notes of it and the last two (except for this moment,
only the first four are used in the scores in other statements, on the soundtrack at least),
and also that Ulron idea by Tyler as an ostinato, and really bold gestures.
The most thematic track.
Also the new theme by Elfman works good.
Interesting to see in retrospective and comparison what an achievement Silvestri's theme is, and also his
S.H.I.E.L.D idea, and how crisp he recorded it.
Tyler did a great variation on the S.H.I.E.L.D material in Uprising also, sometimes he finds good stuff.
I really wonder what the music was before Elfman replaced it?
He actually put in THE major theme. And only one third of the score is by Elfman.
Had Tyler written a different main theme which was eliminated?
As far as I can overview that new theme is nowhere in Tyler's tracks.
There is an idea by Tyler appearing at least twice which is quite iconic, could
be a snippet of a theme which got eliminated. It is in "Seoul Searching" at
1.26 at and the end of "Rise Together", a rising, bold figure.
I wonder if the beginning of "Rise Together" could be Tyler's Avengers theme. It has that fourth intervals of
Cap's theme and could be used as a good theme. When everything else also having that theme was eliminated
you can't say. But this is all speculation. It is the one track already made available.
Elfman's theme is so strong and used so skillful that you identify it as the major theme
even if two thirds by Tyler don't use it.
At least that is the impression from the soundtrack. Is Tyler using it somewhere?
I have to say that some of Tyler's tracks, as usual too dense, too busy, aesthetically without orientation somehow,
make a nice contrast to Elfman sometimes.
It.could be worse, much worse.
Tyler took from Zimmer again BTW, Loki's theme already owned to The Dark Knight, his Ultron idea
owns a lot to the Dark Knight too, one of the ideas, I think for Black Widow and Hulk is very similar to
a theme in Pirates of the C III. It is in "The last One" for example.
At least he has good taste when chosing his models, those themes are all very good ones,
and it is not just plagiarism. But it could be a bit
more of a departure from the originals I think. Anyway, he observes what the others are doing
and channels their good ideas quite effective.
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Posted: |
Apr 25, 2015 - 2:49 PM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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Avengers Unite is also a highlight, maybe Elfman reacted to Tyler's busy writing here a bit,
which in Elfman's hand does not result in too much but gives nice supplement to his core substance.
When there is no essence there it becomes just busy gestures around not much, as often in Tyler's
music, he hides behind a lot of notes. Computer composer.
And there is this Avengers phrase by Silvestri which is the same as the first, but going one step up
from the 3. to the fourth, not down as in the first.
The most memorable music for me is by Elfman, because of his really impressive treatment of themes.
I like that there is sometimes the harmonic backing of the Avengers theme by Silvestri there, without
the melodic phrases, as in "Wish you were here", second half
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Posted: |
Apr 26, 2015 - 1:46 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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Silvestri's theme had that rhythmic accompaniment , setting the stage before the melody enters, which in a way harkens back to Batman Begins because
the pattern ist very similar. Ticking around; down up up down down up up down down up up .....
etc.
In Batman Begins this was in a Pink Floyd kind of sound ambience,
Avengers has it
in orchestral colours.
To have that rhythmic thing also harkens back to Williams Superman, where that triplet rhythm
often sets the stage, Williams called that balletic preparation.
Silvestri is not really using it like that dramatically in the score,, but to have those ingredients here also is remarkable,
because Elfman uses that device also, a quite catchy intro-pattern. Formally similar to Silvestri
though Elfman's is more complicated, more elaborated.
If I hear that properly in what I could listen to snare drums are placed stereophonicly,
alternating each time they head to the next down-beat, which is a nice detail.
I wonder if Elfman had instructions to do that.
Interestingly, Kamen's X-Men really also used that balletic preparation a few times when it was in
the air that the x-men will show up.
I can't think of something else where you can find it that clearly formally.
In Tintin Williams used it before the first sword fight really like in a ballet, but that's it I think.
Elfman's theme has in the very beginning the very same contour than Thor's fanfare by Tyler.
The interval directions and rough sizes are the same.
I wonder if that is a coincidence.
I am really very curious to learn how Whedon's and Feige's instructions and directing looked
like here. What did they ask of Tyler, of Elfman. What did Tyler and Elfman suggest.
Given the short time IMO Elfman created a masterwork. Very catchy theme incorporating
Silvestri's theme, and maybe Thor's. And also using Iron Man's theme, Cap's theme, Ultron's theme.
Maybe this was already in what Tyler wrote and Elfman had to replaced. But still.
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Posted: |
Apr 27, 2015 - 4:58 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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I'll check that out.
When does Tyler use it?
Actually that Elfman brought it in and Tyler used it also is quite unlikely, or a coincidence,
because Tyler's sessions were done when Elfman came in.
Silvestri's Avengers theme is used very interestingly by Elfman.
Sometimes it is used as a B theme, only the first four notes, like a signal.
Like in "Heroes".
Sometimes it is appearing as an ending: Elfman's longer treatments of his new
theme ends with that signal. That is quite subtle.
And sometimes it is a direct counterpoint to the first phrase of Elfman's theme, filling the gap before
the second phrase starts.
Rarely does Elfman use more of the theme than those four notes.
Sometimes it is that other phrase which has just a different fourth note (moving up instead of
moving down).
Actually it is just Silvestri's Avengers motif, or signal. The entire theme does not appear.
Sometimes, like in "Nothing lasts forever" there is just the harmonic background.
That Avengers signal would fit in there, and you almost can hear it.
And Elfman's first phrase would fit in also.
So obviously Elfman constructed his theme with much care for the harmony, so that
he could insert both signal-phrases by himself and Silvestri when needed.
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because Tyler's sessions were done when Elfman came in.
This is incorrect as Tyler stated in an interview that he worked on the score concurrent with Elfman.
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It's possible that Tyler was retained to adjust some of his own cues.
The whole situation is quite unlike anything we have seen I think.
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Posted: |
Apr 28, 2015 - 12:51 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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to listen to everything which was recorded would be fantastic, I am so curious what
that would reveal.
In terms of themes I'd say it looks like Tyler finished everything before Elfman came in,
because Elfman also used a lot of things Tyler uses, but as far as I can make out it is
not the case vice versa.
Though:
In "Breaking and Entering" there appears a motif twice in a musical sequence which sounds like the head of Elfman's theme, the first three notes are identical, the fourth is different, but it moves in the same direction so it sticks to the
contour. It could be a coincidence, because those three notes appear in a lot of music anyway.
Except for that it appears that Elfman elaborated on a lot of themes and motifs by Tyler, while Tyler did
not elaborate on what Elfman apparantly contributed refering to themes.
In general Tyler's ostinato based action music is very reminiscent of Silvestris, having musical motifs
which seem to be rather interchangeable for most of the time.
Why is the Avengers theme not in "Rise together"? Maybe this is Tyler's attempt of a new theme?
I saw the movie yesterday, can't even recall if that track is used? Can somebody tell?
The strong ending gesture of it seems to be written for the heroics of Vision, those motif
is found twice on the album and in the finale of the film it accompanies a vision moment after
some heroic feats.
The head-motif of it with the rising leap twice pops up in some spots in the movie.
Interesting to speculate about the reasons for Elfman coming on board and the conceptions and instructions
Tyler had and Elfman had.
If Elfman replaced, I am so curious how the music was. Maybe they tried to work with a new Avengers theme by Tyler and
it simply could not beat the temp. That the Avengers theme is nowhere in Tyler's tracks but almost everywhere in Elfman's supports that guess.
The Logo fanfare by Tyler is simply abandoned. The Logo has that new accompaniment - figure music
of Elfman's Heroes.
The title card has the ending of the first track on the album.
I wonder why the Fanfare is not there. Did Whedon insist on it because he wanted his movie to
stand alone more than the others?
The tracking is really awkward. When the quinjet returns to the stark-tower in the beginning, this is
tracked with the music from the first movie, when Cap and Coulson firstly arrive on the Helicarrier.
It makes no sense in the second movie when you are someone who cares for music supporting the story not only with its ambience, but also with its content - that is its motifs and themes. Firstly, it was rather associated with S.H.I.E.L.D. Secondly, the kind of anticipation
and not yet established situation with all major characterss not knowing each other, the militaristic feel, like on the way to a uncertain mission, this is all in the first movie.
That's in the combination of picture and music in the first.
In the second, the established team returns home after a completed mission.
Tracking it simply because it is cool and fantastic music (it is) is
dramatically completely wrong. It reduces the impact of a singular moment in the first movie and
it does not serve the unfolding of events in the new one. You could also use any song then. Whedon used
it apparently because he liked it so much, but even the ambience of it feels wrong. Obviously he did
not like the marriage of that music with his pictures in the first as much as I do, because he destroyed
this marriage artistically speaking.
Someone wrote somewhere that Tyler did write something new with the Thor theme.
Does anybody know that?
I could only hear very brief vague allusions to it in one short scene in the movie.
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Posted: |
Apr 29, 2015 - 8:50 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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The strong ending of "Rise together" appears twice on the album.
It is heard when Vision has a moment in the final battle.
Can anybody say if it is taken from "Rise together"?
Seems to be a Tyler motif for Vision in action, as opposed to the more contemplative
track "Vision" on the album.
The beginning is not in the movie apparantly.
From the title, could it be meant to be Tyler's version of "Avengers Unite" or something like that,
so that those two leaps upward, which sound very much by-Goldsmith(e.g. Total Recall)-inspired are motifs Tyler intented to be kind of the Avengers 2 theme, or motif?
I am so curious how the entire recording sessions sound like.
From what is on the album and on the film, I somehow have the feeling that every bit of Avengers-theme-material by
Tyler was replaced. Just speculating.
Those perfect-fourth-leaps in "Rise together" (which happen to be the first three notes of Silvestri's Cap theme in the same
rhythm, appearing at about o.3o) also appear in "Breaking and Entering" (also at o.30).
And when "Rise together" was intented to be where "Avengers Unite", maybe the end of it still is in the movie.
That Iron Man - snippet and Vision-motif could be in that scene, that is somewhere in the same chapter at least.
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Could the first minute of Rise Together be Tyler's original composition for the Helicarrier scene? Then they wanted him to change it back to the Silvestri theme (which it was probably temp tracked with, and it's duration is also about one minute on the Outlook track). They do feel like very similar themes to me.
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