Before John Barry began writing music for cinema ...
... there was Great Britain's 'Golden' Age! (d'oh)
There's plenty of threads on John Barry just as there's plenty of posts about the James Bond franchise.
When a thread is created on ... say ... a black-and-white film produced by the British film industry during the 1950s or '40s, this sort of thread sinks off of the message board's page 1 in a day or less.
I'm curious to witness how many FSMers (especially the Barry fans & Bond fans) are well-rounded enough viewers and listeners to converse about the following composers who had toiled in the industry pre-1960:
1. William Alwyn (88) 2. Malcolm Arnold (88) 3. Hans May (84) 4. Philip Green (83) 5. Stanley Black (81) 6. Clifton Parker (78) 7. Edwin Astley (66) 8. Benjamin Frankel (65) 9. John Addison (63) 10. Mischa Spoliansky (51) 11. Allan Gray (49) 12. Richard Addinsell (43) 13. Nicholas Brodsky (35) 14. Albert Elms (34) 15. James Bernard (32) 16. Francis Chagrin (27) 17. Robert Farnon (26) 18. Laurie Johnson (26) 19. Anthony Collins (25) 20. Matyas Seiber (20)
The approximate number of film scores by these 20 composers are in parenthesis after their names. A lot of composers were filtered out of this list because they either had less than 20 films scored (such as William Walton and Vaughan Williams) or commenced scoring around the same time as John Barry had done (i.e. R.R. Bennett, Johnny Dankworth, Ron Grainer, etc.).
This is not intended to be a comprehensive or factual type of thread; rather, it should be interesting to see input on why pre-1960s British films and their film scores are rarely chatted about.
If one is unfamiliar with the above composers, then a different question might paraphrase the challenge: Do you own soundtracks from James Bond movies but do not have any (inclination to own) Chandos compilation discs of suite recordings from vintage British cinema? If so, explain your reasoning.
Speaking for myself, I consider Benjamin Frankel to be an ideal representative of 1950s British film music whilst I associate William Alwyn with the finest scores from the late 1940s.
Which composers' aesthetics resonate most with your own sensibilities in this area?
[... and no chatting about John Barry! I'd like to see if Barry fans can control themselves to NOT mentioning Barry. ]
Zardoz, your posts are always highly rewarding, but may I state at the outset that I fail to see what the point of this new thread is? Call me thick, but why single out John Barry fans as the ones whose opinions you seek on the earlier Brit composers? It looks a bit like baiting, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. No hard feelings!
Zardoz, your posts are always highly rewarding, but may I state at the outset that I fail to see what the point of this new thread is? Call me thick, but why single out John Barry fans as the ones whose opinions you seek on the earlier Brit composers? It looks a bit like baiting, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. No hard feelings!
There's more than one reason, Graham.
Message board members tend to respond to those threads which interest them the most. Makes sense, so no complaint there. However, certain subjects seem to accumulate the same members to a point where there's little pockets of folks - if you will - who exist as a small subset of the board population.
People who are not too interested in a given topic will likely pass over the thread - and we readers won't get any insight from them.
I find it more interesting to read about what types of music a person doesn't like - to read perspectives different from my own, yet still on a topic which interests me.
Another reason: soundtrack collectors whose focus rests on film music from the 1980s & 1990s may not have anything from the 1960s except a token James Bond or Star Trek album (and this is primarily because these decades-long franchises have large fan bases). Wouldn't it be interesting to tap into these fan bases to witness their opinions on things they would typically dismiss?
Another larger issue, too, Graham, is that the market for monaural/archival music and/or music 50+ years old is diminishing. Limited editions which had been reduced to 500 pressings around 2008 are now getting limits of 350. The people who love Golden Age music are dying off and there's not enough significant replacements amongst the newer/younger collectors. I'd like to see their input, too, on why they may not care for music from the 1950s.
I'll take your challenge, Zardoz, though I must mention John Barry simply because one can only understand someone else's opinion, point of view, etc. if you know the basis from which that person is talking. Hence when I post on a JB007 thread I will always say that I'm a life-long fan or similar ... that way readers can see where I'm coming from.
To move on: JB007 (along with some Hollywood westerns) got me into film music ... but it was John Barry who lead the way ... and 45 years on his music still reigns supreme for me.
But as I've aged I've found my tastes have broadened and my initial select few classical recordings have blossomed!
Concurrently, my lack of interest in most film music this century (there are only a few scores in my collection) pushed me to look elsewhere for what has been my true music love for those 45 years.
For many years I shunned film music pre-1960 (a handful of exceptions) and British film music more-so. Today, with a sizeable selection of pre 1960 British film cues (rather than scores) in my collection I have to say that a lot of it is mediocre. It's worth owning because there are gems ... but compared with the US output the UK scores are also-rans.
Turning to your list of 20 composers, I have works by 14 or 15 ... with only 3 names I don't recognise. But for many it is only a few cues, exceptions being the Chandos releases of works by Alwyn, Black, Arnold, Parker, Addison, Addinsell, Chagrin, Rawsthorne ... you didn't mention Auric (who worked in the UK).
You referred to Benjamin Frankel who is a composer I have yet to find better than okay; I'll refer to William Alwyn for whom I have over 4hrs of recordings. His score for Odd Man Out (never seen the film) is exciting and involving ... The Card (probably never seen) is fun ... most of the others are fine to listen to but are not memorable.
A long-time favourite of mine is Richard Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto which was incredibly influential for many years ... but whilst I enjoy his other compositions, this piece towers.
I've played selections from the Chagrin, Rawsthorne, etc. albums on numerous occasions but I struggle to identify the composer / work when my wife selects the playlist. This music was functional without question but, with some exceptions, was not memorable. Bear in mind that John Barry's (sorry but that name does keep cropping up!) first score (Beat Girl 1960) was the first full score release to a UK film. British film music was not heard outside the cinema pre 1960.
Yes, there are exceptions - of course - such as themes from Love Story 1944 - Hubert Bath's Cornish Rhapsody, Bliss' Things to Come 1936, Coates' Dambusters' March and the aforementioned Warsaw Concerto - but these are few.
Whether it was due to finance, film production (politics) or merely the composers producing the scores required ... I don't think it was lack of talent. The scores derived from Hollywood pre-1960 were - and remain - so much more memorable. Perhaps it is due to quantity: we hear only a small fraction of the US output, there is surely a vast quantity of forgettable US scores and we know only the better ones.
So, to summarise: yes, there is a wealth of material to be listened to (though much of that has been made available only in recent years) ... just don't expect material of the calibre we celebrate from the Golden Age of Hollywood.
And yes, things did change - significantly - in 1960 when a certain Yorkshire lad composed and recorded his first score. You may have heard of him ... his name's Barry ... John Barry.
You referred to Benjamin Frankel who is a composer I have yet to find better than okay....
GGGGG... GGHHHGGG .... ARGH .... WATER, QUICK ...
And 'Battle of the Bulge' and 'Night of the Iguana' and ...
I like his style of vague unsettledness trying to break through to resolution. He could slip from a serial style (genuinely) to a romantic one in a split second, and seamlessly.
In general, my familiarity with British composers is based almost exclusively on their 1960s and later work, with exceptions for a few big international films (e.g., Arnold’s THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI). That’s the era in which I became interested in film music, and my exploration of films and scores prior to that has focused on American films and composers. In looking at your list, vis-à-vis my collection:
The first score of Malcolm Arnold’s that I heard was THE HEROES OF TELEMARK (1965). I suppose I was lucky that the quality of the Mainstream LP didn’t completely sour me on the score, or the composer. THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI hasn’t made much of a lasting impression on me. I can still hum the TELEMARK theme, but nothing from KWAI, save the non-Arnold “Colonel Bogey.”
I’ve owned and loved Clifton Parker’s DAMN THE DEFIANT since my first days of collecting. But I’ve still never seen the film. The only Parker film I’ve seen is SINK THE BISMARCK, and it was so long ago, I can’t remember the music.
Benjamin Frankel’s BATTLE OF THE BULGE is a favorite, and I a regularly revisit the film. I haven’t played my MGM LP of THE NIGHT OF THE IGUANA in many years, but that release didn’t do Frankel’s music any favors by interspersing it with Mexican music “inspired by” the film. Frankel’s introspective score is better served by the film itself, but it’s been a long time since I saw it. I’ve seen no other Frankel films.
I have more scores by John Addison than any other composer on your list, and I probably like him the best. But as usual, it all starts in the ‘60s for me. TOM JONES was the first Addison film I saw. I can’t recall whether my introduction to Addison on records was THE HONEY POT or SMASHING TIME (both 1967). Probably the former, since I recall a track from that score being on a United Artists compilation disc I had even before I acquired the full score LP. SMASHING TIME was all about the songs (also from Addison) rather than the underscore. Still no CD on that one, so the LP doesn’t get a lot of play. I purchased TORN CURTAIN (1966), but it took me about 15 years before I caught up with the film, and even then the score didn’t seize the imagination.
The next three Addison releases I purchased were THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE (1968), SLEUTH (1972), and A BRIDGE TOO FAR (1977). I prefer the last two, probably because I’ve seen both films twice, whereas I’ve never seen CHARGE. I didn’t acquire the classic TOM JONES (1963) until the cassette era. It remain the earliest Addison film I’ve seen. More recently, I’ve seen THE SEVEN-PER-CENT SOLUTION and SWASHBUCKLER. I enjoyed both scores, but haven’t acquired them.
From Robert Farnon, I own the LPs for SHALAKO and ROAD TO HONG KONG. I much prefer the former. They are also the only films of his that I’ve seen.
I’ve seen almost all of the Dracula films of James Bernard, but have acquired only a single compilation CD of his music. I have “The Avengers” TV/film compilation disc from Laurie Johnson, which I thoroughly enjoy—much more so than his full score to FIRST MEN IN THE MOON.
And that pretty much makes up my recorded music from your list of composers. It doesn’t help that early British films and their music are not well represented on physical media in the States—even less so than American ones from the same era. It’s not that I think that I wouldn’t like a lot of that music, it’s just that it’s hard enough to keep up with films and composers with which one is already familiar, without making a concerted effort to seek out unknown works. Of those composers I know, I probably should give Malcolm Arnold another chance, since more of his work is available than some of the others. If I had to select one of the others to look into, it would be Stanley Black, since I like his work as a conductor.
Before John Barry began writing music for cinema ...
... there was Great Britain's 'Golden' Age! (d'oh)
There's plenty of threads on John Barry just as there's plenty of posts about the James Bond franchise.
When a thread is created on ... say ... a black-and-white film produced by the British film industry during the 1950s or '40s, this sort of thread sinks off of the message board's page 1 in a day or less.
I'm curious to witness how many FSMers (especially the Barry fans & Bond fans) are well-rounded enough viewers and listeners to converse about the following composers who had toiled in the industry pre-1960:
1. William Alwyn (88) 2. Malcolm Arnold (88) 3. Hans May (84) 4. Philip Green (83) 5. Stanley Black (81) 6. Clifton Parker (78) 7. Edwin Astley (66) 8. Benjamin Frankel (65) 9. John Addison (63) 10. Mischa Spoliansky (51) 11. Allan Gray (49) 12. Richard Addinsell (43) 13. Nicholas Brodsky (35) 14. Albert Elms (34) 15. James Bernard (32) 16. Francis Chagrin (27) 17. Robert Farnon (26) 18. Laurie Johnson (26) 19. Anthony Collins (25) 20. Matyas Seiber (20)
The approximate number of film scores by these 20 composers are in parenthesis after their names. A lot of composers were filtered out of this list because they either had less than 20 films scored (such as William Walton and Vaughan Williams) or commenced scoring around the same time as John Barry had done (i.e. R.R. Bennett, Johnny Dankworth, Ron Grainer, etc.).
This is not intended to be a comprehensive or factual type of thread; rather, it should be interesting to see input on why pre-1960s British films and their film scores are rarely chatted about.
If one is unfamiliar with the above composers, then a different question might paraphrase the challenge: Do you own soundtracks from James Bond movies but do not have any (inclination to own) Chandos compilation discs of suite recordings from vintage British cinema? If so, explain your reasoning.
Speaking for myself, I consider Benjamin Frankel to be an ideal representative of 1950s British film music whilst I associate William Alwyn with the finest scores from the late 1940s.
Which composers' aesthetics resonate most with your own sensibilities in this area?
[... and no chatting about John Barry! I'd like to see if Barry fans can control themselves to NOT mentioning Barry. ]
I'm surprised that Sir William Walton isn't on the list. True, he wasn't as prolific as the ones on the list, but still managed to compose some worthwhile scores.
I'm surprised that Sir William Walton isn't on the list. True, he wasn't as prolific as the ones on the list, but still managed to compose some worthwhile scores.
As did Vaughan Williams who I would put there purely on his sublime score for Scott of The Antarctic ( a score influential on both Herrmann and Goldsmith ) but Zardoz set out his goal posts so best keep to that or do your own post.
p.s. I love Walton's music but as with RVW it's their concert work I love most.
You referred to Benjamin Frankel who is a composer I have yet to find better than okay....
GGGGG... GGHHHGGG .... ARGH .... WATER, QUICK ...
...
And 'Battle of the Bulge' and 'Night of the Iguana' and ...
I like his style of vague unsettledness trying to break through to resolution. He could slip from a serial style (genuinely) to a romantic one in a split second, and seamlessly.
IMDb credits Mr. Frankel with 74 compositions (incl. TV) ... of which 9 are 1960 and post. Your two titles are from the nine ... I can add The Curse of the Werewolf (Carl Davis/RLPO 2005 re-recording) ... which I enjoy listening to but will have forgotten by the time the next piece of music is 10' in ...
I don't doubt he was an extremely talented composer but unless and until I research his work he can be no better than okay for me.
I used to own his theme from The Night of the Iguana on a vinyl LP compilation ... it was enjoyable for the first half but then went crazy ... which is the style you suggest. Nothing about the film Battle of the Bulge attracted me to get the score.
But this thread is about the pre-1960 works, so: Footsteps in the Fog (1955) ... I have two versions of the popular Lily Watkins theme by George Melachrino and Wally Stott (Angela Morley) but this is another example of the problem with British film music pre-1960 to which I referred: a theme becomes popular but there is no score to be heard outside of the cinema.
The Carl Davis/RLPO re-recordings include a second score: The Prisoner (1955) but I've tried several times to get into this 30' score, only to find my mind wandering before half-way. The theme from The Net / Project M7 (1953) is ... I'd have to play it again to describe, whilst a short suite from So Long at the Fair (1950) is very nice and a clear favourite for me (I did enjoy the film some 40 years ago ...).
Hence, I struggle to give Mr. Frankel the credit he probably deserves.
In general, my familiarity with British composers is based almost exclusively on their 1960s and later work ... ... It doesn’t help that early British films and their music are not well represented on physical media in the States—even less so than American ones from the same era. It’s not that I think that I wouldn’t like a lot of that music, it’s just that it’s hard enough to keep up with films and composers with which one is already familiar, without making a concerted effort to seek out unknown works. Of those composers I know, I probably should give Malcolm Arnold another chance, since more of his work is available than some of the others. If I had to select one of the others to look into, it would be Stanley Black, since I like his work as a conductor.
Stanley Black is a name I've known for 45 years (probably longer) ... a household name in the UK during my early pre-film score collecting days. But as a band-leader, conductor and pianist ... not as a film score composer. And yet IMDb credits him with dozens of scores pre-1960. The Chandos re-recordings (one of my earliest such purchases as I do like his music interpretations) by Barry Wordsworth/BBC Concert Orch. include 7 titles but only 4 of these are prior to 1960:
Three Steps to the Gallows / White Fire (1953), Stormy Crossing / Black Tide (1958), Blood of the Vampire (1958) and Jack the Ripper (1959).
In the US his score to this last-named film was replaced - Pete Rugolo / Jimmy McHugh.
All enjoyable works but, for me, Mr. Black's forte was as an arranger/conductor/pianist. His 1960 score to Sands of the Desert is highly infectious!
I'm especially fond of Benjamin Frankel and also James Bernard, he of Hammer films fame.
Similar to me, being a Hammer Horror film fan.
I've got 25 Hammer-related CDs (including compilations), with James Bernard's music being represented on around two-thirds of those (including his much later Nosferatu score). So I guess I consider him as the "heart and soul" of those films in a similar way to that of Barry/Bond, since they both have a recognisable "sound" that they tended to stick to.
Apart from one CD each by Benjamin Frankel and Laurie Johnson also amongst those Hammer scores, I have nothing by any of the other composers listed in the original post (some of whom I've never heard of). No real reason, other than I'm not familiar with their work. Their music might be a bit before my time for my taste, so unless one of the labels suddenly presented one of their scores as the next best thing since sliced bread for me to evaluate, I haven't any need or desire to investigate further.
In terms of more contemporary composers, I'm very much a fan of Christopher Gunning.
Ditto again, lol.
Started with the wonderful When The Whales Came when it first came out, and have got a few of his other works over the years, and look forward to checking-out the newly-released Rebecca soon.
I find Zardoz's posts interesting and thought-provoking, but I don't quite get this one. Other than preventing the thread from getting buried by putting "John Barry" in the title, I don't see a connection.
I springboard from one artist to another based on a number of factors: Artists who work in similar genres, artists who play on each other's sessions, aesthetics of certain record companies, etc. Nationality in and of itself rarely enters into the equation.
I don't know if I'm a John Barry fan - I like his Bond films up through "Diamonds" and then two or three others, like "The Knack" and "The Ipcress File." Of the composers on that list, the only ones I've checked out are Laurie Johnson and Edwin Astley, but it is their spy-era stuff that I know. I also know Stanley Black through his Phase 4 exotica masterpiece "Exotic Percussion" and Robert Farnon primarily as an arranger.
You might add Elisabeth Lutyens to your list, although I'm not familiar with her work before the 1960s (much of her early work seems to have been in documentary).
I'm curious to witness how many FSMers (especially the Barry fans & Bond fans) are well-rounded enough viewers and listeners to converse about the following composers who had toiled in the industry pre-1960
...............
This is not intended to be a comprehensive or factual type of thread; rather, it should be interesting to see input on why pre-1960s British films and their film scores are rarely chatted about.
..............
If one is unfamiliar with the above composers, then a different question might paraphrase the challenge: Do you own soundtracks from James Bond movies but do not have any (inclination to own) Chandos compilation discs of suite recordings from vintage British cinema? If so, explain your reasoning.
I'll take your challenge, Zardoz-Who-Has-Spoken - and by your standards, probably fail it.
I've heard a lot of British music from the 1950s and before, and if you had the time and inclination to look, you'll see that I've championed John Addison left and right on this forum (as well as Ron Goodwin, who must have barely missed the cut on your list). However, by and large, I don't react well to it. I just don't enjoy much of what you could categorise as British light music, which in my head is what dominated the 1950s and often passed as film music during that time.
To that degree, I don't distinguish between the "British Golden Age" and the Hollywood equivalent. If I have a liking for anyone from that period, it's probably Rozsa, but even then it's rarely my listening of choice.
It isn't until the 60s that I find a lot of appeal, which is almost entirely thanks to He Who Must Not Be Named - and later, Morricone. Scores based in pop or jazz idioms, which moved away from silvery strings and overwrought brassy melodrama. The latter just aren't my cup of tea. (Even now, I prefer Cinderella Liberty to Superman, and Witches of Eastwick to Star Wars, for example.)
That's not to say that I don't have a need, a yearning for symphonic orchestral scores from the 30s through to the 50s and beyond. I just don't satisfy it with film music. My bag is Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Nielsen, Sibelius, Tishchenko. What they have to offer suits me much more than all the names on your list.
By the way, I do have a soft spot for Frankel, who used a snippet of Shostakovich's fifth symphony in The Battle of the Bulge. Were you aware of that? As I always say, who knows film music, who only film music knows?
It's beginning to look as if Zardozdoesn'tSpeak ...
I was looking forward to reading what he thought of the responses to his enquiry, notwithstanding the overall lack of enthusiasm inherent in many replies!
I've just played two small selections:
Lord Berners' Nicholas Nickleby (1947) (Gamba/BBC Concert Orch/2007) Stanley Black's The Battle of the Sexes (1960) (Wordsworth/BBC Concert Orch/2005)
Both are pleasant but generally un-involving, save for the light breezy finish to the latter.
As I don't have internet access every day, I let this thread accumulate with a number of posts before revisiting it.
Well-considered replies overall.
I'll type more of my feedback later on. As for the initial post from Music Mad, I wish to reminds folks that William Alwyn's 1959 Shake Hands with the Devil was issued onto a United Artists LP (so I am not sure one can state that Beat Girl was the 1st soundtrack from a British film).
As for the initial post from Music Mad, I wish to reminds folks that William Alwyn's 1959 Shake Hands with the Devil was issued onto a United Artists LP (so I am not sure one can state that Beat Girl was the 1st soundtrack from a British film).
This all depends on how one defines a "British" film. BEAT GIRL was a wholly British-financed production, while SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL was an Irish-U.S. co-production.
The picture was filmed at the Ardmore Studios in Bray, Ireland, and as stated in the credits, "on actual Irish locations," including the streets of Dublin. Although some contemporary sources state that SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL was the first American picture to be filmed entirely in Ireland, THE QUIET MAN was shot on location in Ireland in 1951. SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL was the first American film shot at Ardmore Studios, however, and was the first production of both Troy Films, which was director Michael Anderson's production company, and Pennebaker, Inc., which was founded by Marlon Brando and his father, Marlon Brando, Sr., in 1955.
If the definition of "British" films includes those that had American involvement, you can add THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI, THE INN OF THE SIXTH HAPPINESS, and many others that pre-date SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL.