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Posted: |
Sep 7, 2017 - 11:25 PM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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“Tak it oot again.” Is that Scottish, William? This topic sadly died. Well, at least we had some good discussions about Whitmer’s book The Big Country. I kept hoping Howard would show up and say, “Hey, teach, I’m on my way to the library to watch this DVD,” and then chime in with his insights. I know of only one way to get 20,000 views and over 1,000 responses. Start a topic that says: In December, 2018, the movie WXYZ (or whatever) will be shown, and it will be scored by Zimmer, Holkenborg, Reznor/Ross, or other sometimes controversial composers that are loved or disliked. Then you’ll get tons of responses like, “It will suck, no it will be awesome.” People will go on and on about how horrid or great the score will be WITHOUT HAVING HEARD A SINGLE NOTE. Kind of sad but oh so true. Still, I’ll try to come up with topics now and then for we mighty few.
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Posted: |
Sep 8, 2017 - 8:15 AM
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By: |
mgh
(Member)
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“Tak it oot again.” Is that Scottish, William? This topic sadly died. Well, at least we had some good discussions about Whitmer’s book The Big Country. I kept hoping Howard would show up and say, “Hey, teach, I’m on my way to the library to watch this DVD,” and then chime in with his insights. I know of only one way to get 20,000 views and over 1,000 responses. Start a topic that says: In December, 2018, the movie WXYZ (or whatever) will be shown, and it will be scored by Zimmer, Holkenborg, Reznor/Ross, or other sometimes controversial composers that are loved or disliked. Then you’ll get tons of responses like, “It will suck, no it will be awesome.” People will go on and on about how horrid or great the score will be WITHOUT HAVING HEARD A SINGLE NOTE. Kind of sad but oh so true. Still, I’ll try to come up with topics now and then for we mighty few. I'm glad you tried, Joan. It is one of my favorite scores and films. I always enjoy your topics.
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I've wondered if the title might be more enticing by replacing "Whitmer's Analysis" with "New Book on the Score" or something. Probably not much, may not matter now. But "Whitmer's Analysis" sounds to me more like a British TV science fiction series from the 50's... just a thought.
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. But "Whitmer's Analysis" sounds to me more like a British TV science fiction series from the 50's... just a thought. It's more like a psychiatric issue of Whitaker's Almanac.
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Posted: |
Sep 8, 2017 - 12:47 PM
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By: |
mgh
(Member)
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Pedantry is always welcome, and I did change the title. Here is something new that I just realized and should have known. I was going through the James Coburn topic on the other side of the board. I never realized that John Sturges directed THE GREAT ESCAPE. Well, duh. In that topic, I see pictures of McQueen, Bronson, and Coburn. He must have liked working with them on THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. I am sure he recognized McQueen's charisma. But there was no Yul Brynner. I kind of think that with his accent, Brynner might have made a decent Kommandant. And, of course, Sturges was smart enough to hire Elmer Bernstein for the score! I think it was James Garner said that in the film, you could see the moment that McQueen became a superstar, and it was when McQueen jumped the fence on the motorcycle. It also occurs to me that The Magnificent Seven may be a difficult film to discuss because it is very nearly perfect. There is never a false step. Nothing is wasted. Everything is right on the money: casting, writing, direction, and of course, the score.
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Wow - look at the views roll in! Good call, Joan.
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Posted: |
Sep 9, 2017 - 11:38 AM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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Cute, Sean. mgh said maybe the western was too perfect to discuss. It is interesting, as I already briefly mentioned, that the reviews were overall very negative because this was a DIFFERENT western than its predecessors. Here are some reviewer comments. One reviewer from Variety, “Enjoyed the opening and described it as a ‘rip-roaring, rootin-tootin Western, but lamented that it deteriorated once the women and children made their appearance. The film became too thoughtful, and the pacing slowed considerably, while the end became a cluttered anticlimax. Suddenly there is a great deal of verbal thunder about fear, courage and the hopes and hazards of the gun slinging profession.”(I don’t see that as a problem.) Hollywood Reporter thought that to, “remake Seven Samurai as a Western had potential but ultimately failed.” He thought the beginning of the film (“about two-thirds”) was fine, “But the rest is sentimental nonsense and it bushwhacks the remainder.” He thought the gunfighters failed at being samurai and called them “bums”. “To turn them into the equivalent of knights in armor, a good deal more character and exposition is necessary than is given.” (Note Seven Samurai was almost twice as long.) “The disparity between the two films left most reviewers disappointed.” A reviewer from the Los Angeles Times echoes, “the general dismay at the lack of action episodes.” Even though there were some “stunning battles, they were photographed almost as if they were ballets-rigadoons of death.” The New York Times said it was, “Pallid, pretentious, and overlong reflection of the Japanese original.” “Endless dawdling.” “Scenario increasingly flattens with philosophical talk on all sides and some easy clichés.” I find this interesting since the reviewers, “lamented the demise of the classic shoot ‘em up westerns” Weren’t those previous shoot ‘em up westerns already CLICHES? Seems to me that THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN broke new ground and was more Avant Garde in its approach. These seven had some damaged heroes and did some questioning about their profession, and yet they did display nobility in their endeavor. Wasn’t it time for make westerns that encompassed more novel approaches? I wonder what these negative reviewers thought about a western that was made 9 years later called THE WILD BUNCH? (Now there was balletic action sequences.) While that western sported amazing action, it certainly is philosophical and is a rumination about the place of the cowboy or gunslinger in changing times. A different reviewer from the L.A. Times liked the movie and thought the characters were “subtle, complex, rather understated individuals and in some cases troubled (think Lee, O’Reilly, and Chico).” This reviewer, “admired Surges’ direction, noting his ability to make knife-sharp use of pauses and silences to bring out both the humor and the melancholy, the humanity as well as the evil. The action exists that helps us to understand the characters.” Smart reviewer. I watched this movie about two months ago with one of my daughters. While she liked it, she did feel that it was rather slow paced in the middle, so I wrote her out of my will. The movie THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN was in its own way a change agent for future westerns. Oh yeah, the critics all did love the music. It might be interesting to note other westerns that followed The Magnificent Seven and how they reflected a novel approach to this genre.
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Posted: |
Sep 9, 2017 - 12:55 PM
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By: |
mgh
(Member)
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Cute, Sean. mgh said maybe the western was too perfect to discuss. It is interesting, as I already briefly mentioned, that the reviews were overall very negative because this was a DIFFERENT western than its predecessors. Here are some reviewer comments. One reviewer from Variety, “Enjoyed the opening and described it as a ‘rip-roaring, rootin-tootin Western, but lamented that it deteriorated once the women and children made their appearance. The film became too thoughtful, and the pacing slowed considerably, while the end became a cluttered anticlimax. Suddenly there is a great deal of verbal thunder about fear, courage and the hopes and hazards of the gun slinging profession.”(I don’t see that as a problem.) Hollywood Reporter thought that to, “remake Seven Samurai as a Western had potential but ultimately failed.” He thought the beginning of the film (“about two-thirds”) was fine, “But the rest is sentimental nonsense and it bushwhacks the remainder.” He thought the gunfighters failed at being samurai and called them “bums”. “To turn them into the equivalent of knights in armor, a good deal more character and exposition is necessary than is given.” (Note Seven Samurai was almost twice as long.) “The disparity between the two films left most reviewers disappointed.” A reviewer from the Los Angeles Times echoes, “the general dismay at the lack of action episodes.” Even though there were some “stunning battles, they were photographed almost as if they were ballets-rigadoons of death.” The New York Times said it was, “Pallid, pretentious, and overlong reflection of the Japanese original.” “Endless dawdling.” “Scenario increasingly flattens with philosophical talk on all sides and some easy clichés.” I find this interesting since the reviewers, “lamented the demise of the classic shoot ‘em up westerns” Weren’t those previous shoot ‘em up westerns already CLICHES? Seems to me that THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN broke new ground and was more Avant Garde in its approach. These seven had some damaged heroes and did some questioning about their profession, and yet they did display nobility in their endeavor. Wasn’t it time for make westerns that encompassed more novel approaches? I wonder what these negative reviewers thought about a western that was made 9 years later called THE WILD BUNCH? (Now there was balletic action sequences.) While that western sported amazing action, it certainly is philosophical and is a rumination about the place of the cowboy or gunslinger in changing times. A different reviewer from the L.A. Times liked the movie and thought the characters were “subtle, complex, rather understated individuals and in some cases troubled (think Lee, O’Reilly, and Chico).” This reviewer, “admired Surges’ direction, noting his ability to make knife-sharp use of pauses and silences to bring out both the humor and the melancholy, the humanity as well as the evil. The action exists that helps us to understand the characters.” Smart reviewer. I watched this movie about two months ago with one of my daughters. While she liked it, she did feel that it was rather slow paced in the middle, so I wrote her out of my will. The movie THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN was in its own way a change agent for future westerns. Oh yeah, the critics all did love the music. It might be interesting to note other westerns that followed The Magnificent Seven and how they reflected a novel approach to this genre. Well, Joan, you may have found a new direction for this thread. I find it interesting that so many critics at the time were negative about the film. I was in college at the time and a group of us from the dorm went to the film. We loved it. The next day we were all doing lines from the film, talking about it over meals, and yes, doing the music. Some us liked it so much that we went to see it again a couple of nights later. Having beers afterwards, we were still discussing the film, and still doing the lines. I have seen the film God only knows how many times over the years. I own a copy of it, and I generally watch again every year or so. It never has been slow to me, even in the middle of the film. That is when we come to know the characters. That is when they become human. And I think you are right; this film did signal a change in direction for the western. We seem to have more "troubled" heroes after this. Three westerns that come to mind are Lonely Are the Brave, Rio Conchos, and The Hour of the Gun. More in depth, some times almost tortured main characters. Take the character of Wyatt Earp in Gunfight at the OK Corral and Hour of the Gun. Both directed by John Sturges. They seem like two different people. I know that one takes place before the OK Corral and one after it and that could account for some of the change, but Garner's Earp seems to be a much more complex character. And as for Boone's character in Rio Conchos, in a western made before 1960, he would have been the bad guy.
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It's hard to spot where a 'genre' really begins. 'Shane' after all was about the obsolescent gunfighter years before. The obsolescence of the cowboy became a whole genre on its own, 'Bronco Billy', 'The Electric Horseman', 'Lonely Are the Brave', 'Will Penny', 'No Country for Old Men', etc.. I thought in these times of CGI that an adult remake of Valley of the Gwangi would be an interesting groundbreaker, where the cowboy and the dinosaur face each other as sympathetic entities, like Spencer Tracy and his big fish.
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Shane was obsolescent? I can't remember that at all, but then it has been years since I watched this movie. A remake of Valley of the Gwangi might be fun. All we have now is Cowboys And Aliens. He saw himself as obsolescent. He tried hard to escape his past, but had to fulfill it. Ryker the rancher was also obsolescent in his own way. The Gwangi I'd envision would be hard to pigeonhole: adult, like 'Old Man and the Sea' but CGI universal in appeal. Crossing boundaries is what filmmakers should do more these days.
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I would at least consider Mariana Whitmer's book on the subject of The Magnificent Seven and it's music to have been of more interest to certain (maybe, "older"??) members of this board, but up till now it would seem that Joan is the only one to have actually purchased and read it! Having purchased it and read it too, I would most certainly recommend it; sure, the layman (like me) might struggle with the musical examples and descriptions, etc., and there was a whole chapter on the use of the TM7 theme for the Marlboro Cigarette commercials that I felt was superfluous, or could have been reduced to a few pages. A glaring omission also (at least to me) was the lack of mention toward the contribution made by Elmer Bernstein's orchestrators Leo Shuken and Jack Hayes on a musical composition of this magnitude. Nevertheless, this is an important addition to the Scarecrow series (and, looks like, the last of them); essential stuff!
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