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He used Bobby Richards, I believe, on The Lion in Winter. Most if not all of his London scores he orchestrated himself. When he started recording in America he used orchestrators because that was the norm. He did not use one on Star Crash.
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Posted: |
Oct 8, 2018 - 1:26 AM
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By: |
mducharme
(Member)
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I’m glad to hear that he appears not to have used an orchestrator during my favourite period of his work. I’m firmly in the camp (maybe it’s just me!) that believes that a contribution from any other person that has any effect on what you hear, whether it’s one note or one harmony or a vocal arrangement, makes that music a collaboration.
I think it is important to keep in mind the job description that 'orchestrator' tends to entail.
In most cases in the past (mid-1980's and before), the composer would write out an extremely detailed 'sketch score' which listed the instruments playing each note. It was therefore a fully orchestrated score except the parts were not written out individually, but were combined in a sort of equivalent of 'shorthand' (i.e. in the same way that shorthand writing can be used to write the same thing as proper cursive handwriting but in less time). With such a system, none of the creative work was really left up to the orchestrator.
I'm sure in practice, the orchestrator even in these cases might suggest a small change to the composer where they might have a better idea. If the composer takes that idea, it doesn't make it a collaboration. If Da Vinci had a friend suggest painting Mona Lisa's eyebrows a tiny bit darker, and Da Vinci took that advice, does it really make it an equal collaboration between Da Vinci and his friend?
Almost all composers let close friends hear their works in progress and get feedback, and maybe integrate one element. It doesn't mean their friend is a co-composer, for they submitted advice that the actual composer can take or leave. They contributed, yes, but how much of a difference it made is arguable.
Sometimes in the modern day however, the orchestrator does a lot more than just fulfill the composer's sketch, and that is where I would agree it becomes a bit more questionable. This is especially the case in the past 30 or so years, where the composer may lack basic musical knowledge and relies heavily on the orchestrator to complete their work. I would hesitate to apply this more modern definition of orchestrator for composers prior to the mid 1980's, which was the earliest period where someone could score a film with a synthesizer without knowing anything about music otherwise.
Furthermore, given your definition of a musical 'collaboration', even the music editor / sound mixer would be considered a co-composer, since they have an effect on what you hear. I feel this is much too strict of a definition to be useful. Every single one of John Williams' or Jerry Goldsmith's scores would probably be listed as a 'collaboration' by this definition.
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Posted: |
Oct 8, 2018 - 2:11 AM
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By: |
mducharme
(Member)
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I’m talking creative decisions that live on in the written music, let’s say. It’s either 100% the composer or it isn’t, in my simple world 
It is never this simple. The person who designed your car audio system certainly didn't know what you would be listening to, but the music editor and music mixer for a score certainly knows they are mixing that music and not some other piece. You can't simply apply some "generic mixing" to music, every mix done by a professional mixer is artistic and is tailored to that score. They can't take that mix and just throw it on some other score and have it magically work.
You can have a violinist playing your piece who decides to cresc. a bit more than what you indicate because it seems natural (maybe they go to forte and you wrote mezzo-forte). Even if it works better than you thought, it doesn't make them a co-composer.
The bottom line is that the composer is not the only creative force involved in the work, and I would think that is obvious with any musical masterwork ever written. If you try telling many performers that their creative interpretations on a work don't matter and are meaningless, I'm sure you won't get very far making friends with performers. These contributions are often "things that live on in the written music", especially in cases where the performer is studying earlier performances, etc.
I'm not trying to be difficult in this response, but I love pieces like the third movement of Berio's Sinfonia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjVh1C2NA2U) which is certainly far from an original work but is very original in the way he deployed the materials. There is a gray area to consider here, and I would suggest not treating it in a black-and-white fashion.
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Posted: |
Oct 8, 2018 - 2:51 AM
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By: |
Tall Guy
(Member)
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No, I think you’re still taking my example too far - the music exists in some hard copy, at which point it’s beyond the composer’s influence unless he or she decides to revise it. If I whistle it in the street I haven’t re-orchestrated it, and if a conductor tweaks the tempi or a percussionist has more adrenaline on a particular day that doesn’t retrospectively change the written music. I think that’s pretty obvious, and I’m all for breathing new life into an old piece of music, but that’s a different discussion.
So I’m not talking about performance, or recording/mixing - I’m talking about the notes and the instrumentation and people other than the composer making creative decisions that live on in the printed score. It might not be much at all or it might be substantial, and it mightn’t make any difference to your enjoyment, but I know there are composers who don’t farm ANY of it out and who will see this question the same way that I do. So yes, black and white is how I could describe it. Like not being a little bit pregnant . It’s a situation that’s always interested me and I’d be happy to discuss it further.
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If you go to markmckenzie.org you can read a great interview wherein he gives some specifics on orchestrating for Barry and Goldsmith.
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The role of the orchestrator varies widely, depending on the composer's abilities, time constraints, etc. Their role can vary from that of a "secretary / proofreader" to co-composer.
Jerry Goldsmith sketched on nine lines (and according to JoAnne Kane, when things ran late and the orchestrators didn't have time to write-out the final few cues, the copyists worked from Goldsmith's actual sketches -- which indicates how detailed they were).
Elmer Bernstein sketched on four lines, and made his intentions clear to the orchestrators. He did however allow them room to embellish things if they felt they could improve the blends.
John Williams sketches on eight to ten lines -- and his orchestrators all remark at how much Williams' sketches have taught them about orchestration!
Herrmann prided himself on never having used an orchestrator -- which is mostly true, but Alexander Courage's name reportedly appears on some of the cues for North By Northwest.
John Scott has hardly ever employed an orchestrator. Ennio Morricone and Rachel Portman reportedly do not use orchestrators.
Brian May, Michael Kamen and George Fenton orchestrated their scores until they started working in Hollywood.
Danny Elfman's orchestrators serve more as a "translators" -- Elfman provides a detailed sketch, but as he is self-taught, he composes entirely in treble clef, so the orchestrator translates it into a properly notated score.
Some classical composers used "orchestrators" as well. Gustav Mahler wrote in detailed "shorthand"; his wife Alma would copy the music out into full score. John Corigliano also works this way.
Time crunches and other issues can enlarge the orchestrator's role of course. James Horner had no experience in big band arranging, and called upon Billy May to arrange the period-style cues in Cocoon and Batteries Not Included.
Jerry Fielding was a slow writer, so a number of his scores were completed by Grieg McRitchie and / or Lennie Niehaus, adapting the themes / cues Fielding had already provided.
The last cues to be composed for Elmer Bernstein's Heavy Metal wound-up being written by David Spear, owing to a looming deadline.
In the case of people who have come-up in the age of sophisticated keyboards (and have not studied orchestration), the orchestrator is called upon to fulfill a larger role. One can create an "orchestrated" mock-up using samples, but samples don't behave like real instruments -- their ranges and limitations are not the same, the intonation required to play a violin is not the same as that for a keyboard, a wind player must take breaths whereas a keyboardist does not, etc. Thus the orchestrator is called upon to make a keyboard-fashioned cue into something playable.
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Al woodbury was also used on BLACK HOLE and OCTOPUSSY i believe - don’t remember where i Got the info from
Also on "Somewhere In Time".
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I've heard that JB's writing ranged from orchestrating his music entirely himself to writing just a melody line on one stave and trusting the orchestrator to add the usual orchestral style. When photographed about the time he was writing The Seasons, it looks like he was writing on six staves.
However, I believe that JB was also very specific, very particular and took full control on the scoring stage to get the exact sound he wanted.
Remember that when he had to completely re-write the Buffalo Hunt cue of Dances With Wolves, he sketched it in a day and the piece had to be orchestrated overnight for recording the next day. The orchestrator was Mark McKenzie, the first time he worked with JB. Mark added things, thinking they would make the piece more exciting and John stripped all the added stuff out on the stage because it wasn't what he wanted. Mark often tells the story as a tribute to JB's vision and to the clarity of his music.
Cheers
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Posted: |
Oct 8, 2018 - 1:36 PM
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By: |
Marcato
(Member)
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I've heard that JB's writing ranged from orchestrating his music entirely himself to writing just a melody line on one stave and trusting the orchestrator to add the usual orchestral backing. When photographed about the time he was writing The Seasons, it looks like he was writing on six staves.
However, I believe that JB was also very specific, very particular and took full control on the scoring stage to get the exact sound he wanted.
Cheers
Having transcribed a lot of JB music i can say that much of his music is the same - key, instruments, tempo, etc.
therefor he could easily have written one cue with full orchestration for, let's say snow job,
and then when it comes to "helicopter attack", "villa fight", "he's dangerous" and "golden gate fight" he would only need line for the new stuff while trusting the orchestrator to insert the music that was re-used
i would also believe that since the main title of BLACK HOLE and Moonraker's CORINNE PUTS DOWN uses the same shifting tecnique between English horn and oboe that it either is a suggestion by Barry or it was the idea of the orchestrator
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Having transcribed a lot of JB music i can say that much of his music is the same - key, instruments, tempo, etc.
therefor he could easily have written one cue with full orchestration for, let's say snow job,
and then when it comes to "helicopter attack", "villa fight", "he's dangerous" and "golden gate fight" he would only need line for the new stuff while trusting the orchestrator to insert the music that was re-used
According to someone I once spoke to who knew Grieg McRitchie, one or two cues in Dances With Wolves were a indeed a single melody line -- I'd hazard a guess one of them was "Turned Injun" (which largely repeats an extended phrase from "Journey to the Buffalo Hunting Ground").
Nick Raine says Barry's sketches were very specific in regard to strings, brass, percussion, etc., but he would sometimes "forget" the oboes. Raine says he started adding oboes because he felt bad the oboists were sitting there at the session with nothing to do!
Here is a really interesting interview with Nic Raine where he mentions this, and many other interesting anecdotes about working for John Barry...
https://jamesbondradio.com/nic-raine-interview-music-bond-podcast-001/
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Posted: |
May 4, 2019 - 9:04 AM
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By: |
Smaug
(Member)
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My favorite quote ever about orchestration of film scores came from john barry: “Does it really matter who chipped the last flake off of (the statue of ) David’s ass?”
To me, most of these questions, or any ambiguity can be cleared up with a glimpse at primary material, I.e. the composers sketches (back when composers actually write music by hand). Today it’s mostly a non-issue when composing with computers, and, in my eyes, is mostly score preparation.
But it’s telling that in glimpses of video I have seen, it looks like goldsmith conducted from his own sketches. I had a talk with an Oscar winning composer once about orchestration and John Barry, as I was saying that with Barry, after 1980 basically everything is done the same way...a very effective way for film, but that the orchestration itself wasn’t particularly interesting. This composer disagreed and went on about how all those great melodies were played on mostly open strings, how like in Williams it was done in a way that really highlighted those melodies, and how it was a more pure sense of orchestration.
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