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I was going to post, but all the pertinent information is here for those who have working brains. And yet still people say ridiculous things like "we can't know until we see Barry's sketches." I mean, that is simply the height of something or other. In more interesting news, in last night's 98th Kritzerland show we did a VERY rare Barry song from his mega-Broadway flop (closed in previews), The Little Prince and the Aviator. It went over very well indeed.
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The role of the orchestrator varies widely, depending on the composer's abilities, time constraints, etc. Their role can vary from that of a "secretary / proofreader" to co-composer..... . I was going to say something like this, but PM did it better, and more completely. EDIT: And I will add to his list that Raksin wrote in rather complete sketches. I think it was Earle Hagen who said this. Alexander Courage said orchestrating for Goldsmith (or Williams?) was practially copying music from one color paper to another color paper (i.e. it was very complete).
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The role of the orchestrator varies widely, depending on the composer's abilities, time constraints, etc. Their role can vary from that of a "secretary / proofreader" to co-composer..... . I was going to say something like this, but PM did it better, and more completely. Thanks David!
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The role of the orchestrator varies widely, depending on the composer's abilities, time constraints, etc. Their role can vary from that of a "secretary / proofreader" to co-composer..... . I was going to say something like this, but PM did it better, and more completely. EDIT: And I will add to his list that Raksin wrote in rather complete sketches. I think it was Earle Hagen who said this. Alexander Courage said orchestrating for Goldsmith (or Williams?) was practially copying music from one color paper to another color paper (i.e. it was very complete). I will further add to the list that Raksin orchestrated at least once for Tiomkin, who tended to be rather slim in his indication of what parts were played by who.
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The role of the orchestrator varies widely, depending on the composer's abilities, time constraints, etc. Their role can vary from that of a "secretary / proofreader" to co-composer..... . I was going to say something like this, but PM did it better, and more completely. Thanks David! You're quite welcome.
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David, I’ve read that so many times, yet I’m still a little puzzled why presumably expensive hires like Courage and Morton would get this menial task to do instead of some literate but cheap kid out of the violin section. It's not really a task any "cheap kid" can do, and I'm certain that the violin section of Hollywood Studio Orchestras is not populated by "cheap kids". :-) Excellent authors like Gardner Dozois worked years as editor. Why not? I think you want highly skilled people to do it, and that takes experience. And Goldsmith said that 60% of the sound of the vocal work on The Omen was down to Arthur Morton. So whose word do we take? I don't see there is any conflict. If Goldsmith said Arthur Morton arranged the choral parts for THE OMEN much better than he did, why should that not be true? That was one case where it was not just putting it from one colored paper to another. Those cases obviously occur. I mean, I see no reason to doubt people like Goldsmith, Morten, Courage, Fielding, or the lengthy quote up there by Richard Gibbs... seems to me all these people should know what they talk about. I have no reason to disbelieve any of their statements, particularly not since they do not even disagree with each other. Also, Goldsmith, Williams, etc. are high paid composers, you would not want to save on the orchestrator just to end up with a final score that is not perfect. Orchestration is still a highly skilled task, not something anyone who can read music can do as a side job. And to put a lot of the posts above into context (writing on x number of musical lines) I counted 32 on a facsimile sheet of a symphony. Is that about right for a full orchestration? There’s much I still don’t get on this subject! The number of staves may obviously vary, depending on how many you need. Usually, one per group of instruments and solo instruments, though groups can of course be divided (like strings) so you need staves for first and second violins, etc., and sometimes you need grand staves (joined staves). There is no fixed number.
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Posted: |
May 8, 2019 - 7:25 AM
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By: |
Smaug
(Member)
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I was going to post, but all the pertinent information is here for those who have working brains. And yet still people say ridiculous things like "we can't know until we see Barry's sketches." I mean, that is simply the height of something or other. In more interesting news, in last night's 98th Kritzerland show we did a VERY rare Barry song from his mega-Broadway flop (closed in previews), The Little Prince and the Aviator. It went over very well indeed. This is the problem with film. Like with comic books, where I have never understood why the person who draws the drawing doesn’t color the drawing, for ages I have puzzled over the question of orchestrators in Hollywood. Herrmann, Shore, Morricone feel pretty strongly about it being an actual part of composition. There are others like jW and Goldenthal, where I have no doubt about their bona fides and it’s just a matter of time. With a Elfman, hearing his demos, you can see his ideas are full and complete. It’s just a question of score creation. Etc etc. But saying we don’t know what Barry does until we see a primary source is not out of line.
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SMAUG
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David, I’ve read that so many times, yet I’m still a little puzzled why presumably expensive hires like Courage and Morton would get this menial task to do instead of some literate but cheap kid out of the violin section. Well, the kid in the violin section may be capable, but composers (like many people) tend to hire the people they know and trust. The "orchestration" tasks carried-out by Arthur Morton or Alexander Courage may have required more in the way of technique than creativity, but experienced orchestrators are efficient, and fast. Andre Previn told a story about an MGM staff orchestrator who dropped a page of a score he'd just finished orchestrating, and rather then take the effort to bend down and pick it up, he just decided to start over on a new sheet! And sometimes the kid in the orchestra does get the job -- John Williams was a session player who was eventually graduated into the role of orchestrator (for Dimitri Tiomkin and others). Goldsmith also briefly employed a "new kid" -- Nancy Beach -- on several of his scores in the late 1980s. And Goldsmith said that 60% of the sound of the vocal work on The Omen was down to Arthur Morton. So whose word do we take? As a general rule, Goldsmith's sketches contained all the detail. Goldsmith knew the orchestra inside-out. However The Omen was of course loaded with choral music, and Goldsmith admitted he was "rusty" at choral writing at that time (having done very little of that type of writing previously). On this occasion, he deferred to Morton's expertise to help. Goldsmith could have gone to the library and spent a week or two poring over a book on choral arranging, but the tight post-production schedules didn't allow for such a luxury. Morton most likely smoothed the blends, made certain things stand-out, etc. Also, if "60% of the choral music was arranged by Arthur", that means that Goldsmith still arranged the other 40%. This happens often. Angela Morley spruced-up the strings blends in many John Williams scores because she was an expert in the British romantic string-writing tradition. Williams could probably have achieved the desired result himself, but he probably would have had to study scores by Elgar and others, and again there usually isn't time when scoring a picture. This is the problem with film. Like with comic books, where I have never understood why the person who draws the drawing doesn’t color the drawing, for ages I have puzzled over the question of orchestrators in Hollywood. Herrmann, Shore, Morricone feel pretty strongly about it being an actual part of composition. There are others like jW and Goldenthal, where I have no doubt about their bona fides and it’s just a matter of time. Well, in the strict sense "orchestration" is part of the composition process, but the people working for Williams, Shore, etc. are mostly just copying "shorthand" scores. For instance, a composer might want flute and oboe to play in unison. Rather than write two lines, the composer will write one line, and indicating the instruments to be used. And not all instruments are tuned the same way. A trumpet is tuned to b-flat for example. And it can get to be a pain in the arse writing in different keys, so all the parts in a sketch will be in the same key (which is easier to write), and any orchestrator knows that a trumpet part must be transposed to the correct key in the full score. Orchestration is also very time-consuming. Film composers are mostly occupied by solving the dramatic approach to the picture (something a composer writing a concert commission doesn't have to deal with), as well as formulating themes and compose cues -- which are meticulously timed to the action on screen -- all within a few weeks. When you consider Howard Blake literally almost killed himself by scoring Flash Gordon in two weeks without the help of an orchestrator, you can see why most composers chose to employ them.
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Well, it's film craft. We're not talking about absolute music; almost every aspect of film-making involves more than one person to achieve the desired result. That said, most of the name film composers have their individual stamp on their music regardless of whatever process is used.
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and again there usually isn't time when scoring a picture. Once again, PM does it faster and more complete than I could have! I'll add that time is an element that is not understood by most of us "civilians" (those not in the industry). The composer gets the film almost last, and is expected to finish yesterday. The composer can also have more time for this piece, but too little time for that piece, partly because of stuff needed at the last minute, and partly because some people procrastinate! So the amount of time to do something can vary. I recall seeing a sketch of JG's that showed that he wanted the percussion to do something, but it didn't have to be significant, so he wrote "Fill." Morton put in straight 16th notes on a drum machine. (Can anyone guess the piece?) So complete as JG would sketch, it appears he didn't have time to do much on this one.
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Once again, PM does it faster and more complete than I could have! And I don't even use an orchestrator! I recall seeing a sketch of JG's that showed that he wanted the percussion to do something, but it didn't have to be significant, so he wrote "Fill." Morton put in straight 16th notes on a drum machine. (Can anyone guess the piece?) So complete as JG would sketch, it appears he didn't have time to do much on this one. Drum machine? Hmmm...an 80s score most like. Extreme Prejudice? I recall Goldsmith had to do that one in three weeks, didn't he? Further on Arthur Morton, the Chinatown album contains the credit "Arranged by Arthur Morton". In every other case Morton was credited with "Orchestration by" but on Chinatown it was "Arranged by"? I always wondered if this was a case of Morton doing more than usual (the score was written in only ten days).
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Once again, PM does it faster and more complete than I could have! And I don't even use an orchestrator! I recall seeing a sketch of JG's that showed that he wanted the percussion to do something, but it didn't have to be significant, so he wrote "Fill." Morton put in straight 16th notes on a drum machine. (Can anyone guess the piece?) So complete as JG would sketch, it appears he didn't have time to do much on this one. Drum machine? Hmmm...an 80s score most like. Extreme Prejudice? I recall Goldsmith had to do that one in three weeks, didn't he? The Gremlin Rag
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