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Pav, I started this book and it is hilarious! Thanks for recommending it. Once I've finished I thought I'd loan it to a single friend; she will love it.
Glad you're enjoying it. You know, I will never steer you wrong, Sis!
By the way, my favorite story in the book is the second one, "Too Dumb for Love!" The phony advice columns are a hoot, too...
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Posted: |
Jul 10, 2003 - 11:42 PM
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By: |
JohnSWalsh
(Member)
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Of course you don't have to like them, John; I don't think anyone's arguing that."
I don't think I said anyone was forcing me to like them.
"What's a tad objectionable is that you're making judgements about an entire creative form just because you don't care for it - not just saying "I don't like them," but "they're childish crap."
It's objectionable because you wouldn't make it. Are you really saying you don't dislike ANY form--soap operas? snuff films? Harlequin romances? Really?
I think they're childish crap. That's just me. I don't know why anyone would find someone else's opinion offensive. It's not like I have some legislative authority to stop anyone from liking them. I don't; I expressed why.
"I'd even go so far as to agree that many if not most of them are childish crap,"
So what's the problem? We both have read them, and just because I don't like 'em doesn't mean I can't express a viewpoint.
"but that doesn't mean the form is completely bereft of even the potential for mature, considered, creative expression worthy of adults' attentions."
It is to me--those last two words are the important ones. I don't think I have some incredible perception that is the final word on what is or isn't adult material. This is an opinion I'm expressing, not laying down the law.Every opinion piece doesn't have to constantly restate IMHO. Nothing I say hurts anyone's feelings unless they are looking for some outlet for their own mixed feelings about the form, perhaps.
I don't see comic books as being on the same level as literature. Sorry. But that doesn't change anyone else's opinion, or their ability to find adult value in them. We each have our own past experience, and maybe things in comics affect people in ways that are equivalent to how Conrad or Donald Westlake, for example, affect me. Fine. I don't see it. But the point is, that's just me.
"It's essentially the same thing as saying "I don't like music; therefore, music is trash fit only for children, and everyone who enjoys it is immature - "
No it's not. (Why? because I am telling you it's not, and I think I know my opinion better than you do.) It's the same thing as saying "I don't like 45 minute synth drones." Music is an art; comic books are a subset of a larger artform.
and hey, that's perfectly fine, if that's what they want." Appending that disclaimer doesn't quite fully compensate for the preceding statement. 
That's how you see it, not how I see it; you don't tell me what I think, I won't tell you what you think. I see it as me making my opinion and then adding--because some folks refuse to get it--that that's MY opinion. You apparently are in the same camp; fine. But I don't care if you think me adding the perfectly obvious (to me) disclaimer is insufficient to avoid offending someone who can't stand a conflicting view.
Enjoy your comics. You're probably a lot smarter and more sophisticated than I. I am not being snide, I'm just saying I have a point of view, it doesn't mean I think mine is superior, just different. Okay?
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Posted: |
Jul 11, 2003 - 12:42 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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It's objectionable because you wouldn't make it. Are you really saying you don't dislike ANY form--soap operas? snuff films? Harlequin romances? Really?
In the way you did? Yes, really. There may or may not be entire art forms I simply don't like, but I acknowledge they all have their value, whatever I may think of them. I just don't think there are any bad genres or media forms.
I wouldn't make that judgement, that's correct; I also wouldn't make the same judgement about music, prose, poetry, theater, film, TV, video games, sculpture, painting, etc. I might judge individual works to be bad, but I'd never be so presumptuous as to declare an entire creative venue is bereft of merit just because it doesn't appeal to me personally.
Just because I personally don't like an entire creative format doesn't mean I think it doesn't qualify as an art form.
I think they're childish crap. That's just me. I don't know why anyone would find someone else's opinion offensive. It's not like I have some legislative authority to stop anyone from liking them. I don't; I expressed why.
Whether you like them or not isn't the issue, nor is whether anyone else likes them or not.
So what's the problem? We both have read them, and just because I don't like 'em doesn't mean I can't express a viewpoint.
Right - but I'm free to express my viewpoint of your viewpoint, too, right?
It is to me--those last two words are the important ones. I don't think I have some incredible perception that is the final word on what is or isn't adult material. This is an opinion I'm expressing, not laying down the law.Every opinion piece doesn't have to constantly restate IMHO. Nothing I say hurts anyone's feelings unless they are looking for some outlet for their own mixed feelings about the form, perhaps.
I don't see comic books as being on the same level as literature. Sorry. But that doesn't change anyone else's opinion, or their ability to find adult value in them. We each have our own past experience, and maybe things in comics affect people in ways that are equivalent to how Conrad or Donald Westlake, for example, affect me. Fine. I don't see it. But the point is, that's just me.
I'm not saying any comic ever written is on the same level as what we usually mean when we say literature (though of course it depends upon the definition of literature). However, I just thought I'd comment because I saw your statement as just not making a lot of sense.
Can drawn or painted artwork be considered great art to you? Can written narrative be considered great art to you? If the answer to both questions is yes, then I'm simply interested in what it is that in your mind automatically precludes a medium that combines these two from being anything more than "childish crap." Couldn't most great works of literature have been told in the form of comic books? Sure, obviously; most of them already have, after all, although they were simply adaptations of existing works (and nobody will maintain such adaptations are masterworks in and of themselves). However, isn't it possible that something on that level could be created within that format? And if not, why not?
I don't know if you're basing your argument on the idea there haven't been any comics that are Great Art on the level of Leonardo, Shakespeare or Bach. I certainly wouldn't presume to argue with that. However, it appears to me (please do note I said "appears to me"; you seem to accuse me of constantly "telling" you what you're saying or what you think or how you should think, which isn't the case; I'm just doing my best to understand you) that you're arguing the medium is inherently incapable of producing something on that level.
No it's not. (Why? because I am telling you it's not, and I think I know my opinion better than you do.) It's the same thing as saying "I don't like 45 minute synth drones." Music is an art; comic books are a subset of a larger artform.
I, of course, didn't profess to know your opinion better than you did; I just took what you said and applied it to something else. I'd argue traditional comics are more like a combination of two arts (visual arts and narrative), but whatever, the point still stands; if I'd used some subset of music instead of simply music overall - say, classical music (or 45-minute synth drones, if you like; whatever) - it would have been essentially the same as your argument.
That's how you see it, not how I see it; you don't tell me what I think, I won't tell you what you think. I see it as me making my opinion and then adding--because some folks refuse to get it--that that's MY opinion. You apparently are in the same camp; fine. But I don't care if you think me adding the perfectly obvious (to me) disclaimer is insufficient to avoid offending someone who can't stand a conflicting view.
I don't and didn't tell you what to think; I just don't think what you think (in this instance) is particularly logical, so I questioned it.
Enjoy your comics. You're probably a lot smarter and more sophisticated than I. I am not being snide, I'm just saying I have a point of view, it doesn't mean I think mine is superior, just different. Okay?
Well, of course it's Ok; I did, after all, take the trouble at the very beginning of my post to acknowledge that. Sorry if you missed it.
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Posted: |
Jul 11, 2003 - 3:10 AM
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By: |
MWRuger
(Member)
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Well most of your reply seems to mainly be personal attacks, so I’ll try to ignore those and address the points you raised:
Quote: Your childish, crybaby response proves my point. I'm not telling nayone else what to read, and guess what? Your OPINION is no more "correct" than my OPINION.
I don't understand why comic book fans get so petulant when someone else, who has access to as many or more comic than the average person, dislikes the form. I don't like watching episodic television either. Do you feel threatened? You shouldn't.
Certainly, it’s your opinion and certainly it’s correct for you. But you still haven’t said anything that would make me think your opinion is informed or should be taken seriously. Impress me with your comic knowledge (since you claim to have more knowledge than the average person), not your mastering of ad hominem attacks.
Quote: Your kneejerk response is pathetic--someone doesn't like what you like, it can't possibly be because they have read many comic books and simply don't enjoy them, he must be uninformed!
The disdain and dislike is no big revelation--I SAID as much. Why this bothers you so much that you write a nasty little post focusing on ME as opposed to the comics sure isn't disuading me from thinking comic book fans over the age of 18 are overgrown adolescents.
Well, you didn’t actually mention any comics in your post except Cerebus and then only as the name of book that people would probably toss after reading your first post. (They might toss it after reading the self indulgent diatribe that Dave Sim fills the back of the book with)
You just made a very general statement that comics are “childish crap”. A bad choice, as absolutes are difficult to substantiate. If you had said some comics are crap or even 90 % of comics are crap, you might have a point. I might even agree. But if you care, to I will be glad to discuss any comics you care to bring up.
I wasn’t trying to dissuade you of anything. You have already made up your mind. So far I haven’t read anything in this thread that would make your opinion matter to me. Certainly, your response has done little to convince me that you understand the subject matter.
Quote: Oh, yes, O Mighty One, whatever you say. That would have made a fascinating post. The "invective" is merely my expression of why someone who used to like comics doesn't anymore.
If you didn’t intend to insult everyone here and just the answer the question, then yes that is the post you should have made. Maybe you should try to be less "fascinating" and a little more polite.
Or maybe you could have said “I don’t get what people like about comics. I have tried and it just seems juvenile to me. Show me what you think is so great about these books.”
Quote: You don't like it? Boo-freakin-Hoo. I can only imagine hundreds of comic book fans have read my comments and said "My God, he's right!" and tossed their copies of Cerberus in the trash. Yeah, sure.
So at 17 you woke up one morning and said “My God! This is childish crap! I better switch to Mike Hammer and Nick Carter or maybe read some Ian Fleming or Rex Stout or Sherlock Holmes” and promptly tossed all your X-men in the trash.” Boo-freakin-Hoo, I don’t care what you do. The way you stated it seemed clearly to be confrontational and designed to illicit the exact response you got. Why so worked up that you got it? Surely this was what you wanted, chance to be morally outraged and vent your spleen.
Quote: As opposed to your stunning comments about comics--oh, wait, you haven't offered any--just bitching that someone doesn't share your opinion. And who cares if they're not new? I suppose all of your opinions are stunningly original--well lay 'em on us. Or are they so original that no one can hear about them for fear of bursting into flames?
No, I don’t think my opinions are stunningly original, but blaming comics for the ills of American culture certainly isn’t either. Dr. Wortham and you would have gotten along famously. (Dr Fredrick Wortham, whose book “Seduction of the Innocent” bemoaned the effect of comics on the youth of America laying the blame for homosexuality, drug abuse and juvenile delinquency at the feet of comics. He raised such a stink that he got Congress to investigate comics. But you already knew that, right?)
In any event, I was responding to your post. It certainly seemed to me that you felt that blaming comics and other “childish” things that adults do for the dumbing of movies was an original view. It isn’t.
I think that the low regard that Hollywood has for the general public is more likely to blame than any other factor. When you worry about making a script “too smart”, you are likely to get exactly the dumb script you want. But in their defense, that’s what put butts in the seats. They aren’t making art, they are making product. We should probably stop going to see movies that are poorly written and using the excuse that it is a popcorn flick to let us feel okay about watching a film that has more holes in the plot than swiss cheese and people outracing explosions and at least one explosion or shootout every five minutes.
Quote: No, they're pretty interesting people who like to talk about books and movies and music and art and they don't cry when someone reads their favorite comics and doesn't like them. They listen to what I say and give their opposing views, then explain why they enjoy the evolution of comic art and why they like this artist or that writer. Most of them have moved on from comics, but one or two still read them. If they thought like you they'd say "You're stupid for not liking exactly what we like!" They're a lot more mature than that.”
I am sure that they are great guys. I certainly hope that they don’t cry when you tell them that those books you just returned were shit. I am just hoping that they pass those books on to someone who hasn’t already made up his mind. I am also sure that they would appreciate being characterized as “overgrown adolescents”. I don’t think you are stupid and I never said you were. I said your opinion was uninformed, narrow-minded and rubbish, not stupid. Let’s be accurate.
You want to talk about art, movies, music, books (real books, not those silly comics)? Fine then start a thread about those and If I have something to say, I will. But you can bet that my comments won’t be along the lines of “Impressionism is all childish crap! Why can’t they paint it right? Impressionism led to the dumbing down of modern art and that is why we have all this abstract crap that doesn’t make a bit of sense.”
You want to know I bothered to respond to your post? Because I have been hearing your “opinion” all my life. (Not just comics, but anything that moves away from the mainstream acceptable culture) To me it is uninformed and purposely hateful. Just another cheap shot at comics.
I worked in the comics industry for six years. I ran my own shop for about three years. I spent countless hours on planes traveling around trying to promote my companies business and raise awareness of comics. I have met a large number of professionals, who gave their creative life’s to this artform. I saw companies literally bankrupt themselves for the sake of art and what they believed in.
To hear their contributions and sacrifices disregarded as “childish crap” is more than a little annoying. So if you were insulted or angered by my response, good. I am glad you got the point.
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Posted: |
Jul 11, 2003 - 6:29 AM
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By: |
JohnSWalsh
(Member)
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"So far I haven’t read anything in this thread that would make your opinion matter to me. Certainly, your response has done little to convince me that you understand the subject matter."
1. What makes you think I care if you or anyone else thinks I am an authority or an ignoramus on the subject matter?
2. As someone said in the Matrix thread, it's the easiest, safest thing for someone who's threatened by another's opinion to say "Oh, you just didn't understand it."
3. Seeing how my opinion doesn't matter to you, you sure do go on and on about it.
Why so threatened? Relax. Go read. Enjoy. If it drives you into a snit that someone, somewhere, doesn't enjoy the same things you do...grow up.
"Dr. Wortham and you would have gotten along famously. ....(But you already knew that, right?)"
Yes, I have a good knowledge of comic book history. And how childish of you to try to play the McCarthyite guilt-by-association game by linking me with him. It's like me lumping you in with those jerks who attacked the Dixie Chicks for mouthing off because you're criticizing an opinion you don't like--you and Jerry Falwell probably get along famously.
"It certainly seemed to me that you felt that blaming comics and other “childish” things that adults do for the dumbing of movies was an original view. It isn’t."
You are so desperate to get a jab in because you feel wounded. It's tiring to keep pointing out how your poor reading comprehension skills keep tripping you up. Never said it was an original observation, just the way I feel. (I like to watch movies, too--not an original concept, but a valid one.)
"I worked in the comics industry for six years. I ran my own shop for about three years. I spent countless hours on planes traveling around trying to promote my companies business and raise awareness of comics."
Well, that's nice, we all work hard to earn a living, too. Has zero to do with either my OPINION of comic books, or, for that matter the validity of yours--just because YOU care about them doesn't mean they are great; just because I don't care about them anymore doesn't mean they're crap.
"I have met a large number of professionals, who gave their creative life’s to this artform. I saw companies literally bankrupt themselves for the sake of art and what they believed in."
So that means I have to like it? Because you and your buds worked in that industry? OK. It's something YOU think is great, so therefore everyone else has to respect it?
People sweated over trying to stop black people from getting civil rights, people DIED to wipe out Jews. I await your praises of those folks. I mean, they care about what they do, too. (Hey, making out-of-left-field smears is easy! But then you knew that.)
"To hear their contributions and sacrifices disregarded as “childish crap” is more than a little annoying. So if you were insulted or angered by my response, good. I am glad you got the point."
Oh--so you ARE trying to be insulting, not have a discussion?
Maybe you should try to be less "fascinating" and a little more polite." At least before you start lecturing others on their self-expression.
I promise not to revisit this increasingly dreary thread--I think your posts are making my point with a vengeance--and I hope YOU promise to discuss comic books.
OK, now everyone post about the point of the thread, which was in answer to the question "Comic books...you read 'em?"
Just don't answer honestly unless it's 100% praise. Some widdle comic book fans may cry.
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