Totally agree, Ron. I never quite thought Glory posed any kind of credible threat until she put the savage hand-squeeze on Tara last night. She's just been too funny, too desperately catty to buy as a real menace. But when you could hear the hand-bones of an inner circle Scooby being crunched before your very ears, it drove it all home; this chick is dangerous. Oh, she's still funny, crazed and desperate...but now also believably threatening. Disturbingly sadistic touch: loved the licking of the blood as a means of ID-ing "the key".

The fire and brimestone battle of magics at the end was pretty spectacular, given the meager Buffy budget. One thing; sometimes I think levitations look goofy, and I might've just had Willow storm in there--on her feet--and cut loose. But I guess it worked in an over-the-top way.

I found myself not buying Spike in one scene, when he said "I'd do it...for someone I loved" (an approximation, in regard to Willow's suicidal confrontation with Glory). His self-awareness of his own evil tendencies as a vampire, coupled with his seemingly boundless capacity for love and affection suddenly had me thinking he was too improbably saintly a creation of late to believe. I hadn't thought that before last night.

Amber Benson did some of her best acting so far. She really seemed traumatized by Glory, and--post-brain-suck--her vapid, spaced-out ravings were dead-on. The image of Willow spoon feeding her pudding was an affecting blend of pathetic, sad and poignant. I think the "pudding scene" would've played better with Beck on board. Wanker's plinky piano almost seemed to mock the moment for me. Beck, I want you back! I'll say this, no-one looks better tearing off the side of a house than Glory. They're dressing her for success. Order the girl another case of loofahs!

Angel was pretty snappily written, and it flowed along nicely. Did that inter-dimensional, stiffer cousin of the be-horned, crooning lounge act remind anyone of another, famous sci-fi race? One word: Klingons.

What follows here is a speculative concern about possible upcoming Buffy casting changes; I don't know if I'm right, but I think I could be...so if you want to be kept totally in the dark about who's going to be on the active list of Buffy players next season, read no further.
**Possibly big-time Spoiler altert kicks in here; again, I don't know anything for sure. This is pure speculation...**

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etc.

Does anyone else suspect that plans may be afoot to phase out Giles? Based on comments made by Anthony Head about scaling back his involvement--I forgot who already mentioned that on this board--and a few new characters who've been introduced in the past few episodes...and a snippet of a preview trailer aired by the WB promoting upcoming episodes, I've become wracked with fear that everyone's favorite watcher is going to be felled by season's end. The introduction of professor so-and-so at the beginning of last night's episode struck me as an obvious move to present a candidate--mannered, scholarly, kind and concerned--for the position of a surrogate Giles in year six. I mean, why else was that dude there? Perhaps it was the almost paternal glint in his eye that led me down this path. Damn, I hope I'm wrong, though. Giles is a linch-pin character! Please weigh in with your thoughts, if you're game. Again, this has already been addressed, in regard to the introduction of "Doc", but I didn't take the threat seriously then; must've been that tail, those black eyes. But professor so-and-so...he's got Giles written all over him.

--Cooper

[This message has been edited by Cooper (edited 02 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Cooper (edited 02 May 2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cooper:

<<I found myself not buying Spike in one scene, when he said "I'd do it...for someone I loved" (an approximation, in regard to Willow's suicidal confrontation with Glory). His self-awareness of his own evil tendencies as a vampire, coupled with his seemingly boundless capacity for love and affection suddenly had me thinking he was too improbably saintly a creation of late too believe.>> I hadn't thought that before last night.

<<I've become wracked with fear that everyone's favorite watcher is going to be felled by season's end. The introduction of professor so-and-so at the beginning of last night's episode struck me as an obvious move to present a candidate--mannered, scholarly, kind and concerned--for the position of a surrogate Giles in year six. I mean, why else was that dude there? Perhaps it was the almost paternal glint in his eye that led me down this path. Damn, I hope I'm wrong, though.

--Cooper

---

Well, Coop...that's a lot to digest. Your comments re: Spike above reminded me that there was a recurrent theme -- one that caused the fight between Willow and Tara, one that created tension between Buffy and Dawn AND Willow: That theme was the "accusation" various people made to others that they "couldn't possibly know what I'm going through" -- Buffy telling Willow that, Tara telling Willow that (Poor Willow!) anent losing a parent. It's what no one said that was so profound! People take on responsibilities in life and then don't tell their friends about the burdens. Of course they can't know! Even Buffy withheld crucial info from Dawn..about the principal threatening Buffy with the possibility that Dawn could be taken from her. Anyway....I thought Spike's scene was crucial, even if it wasn't believable for Cooper, for someone to say it -- that there are some things we would absolutely do to protect the ones we love. Spike bore the bruises as proof-positive he knew what he was saying. There was also the confirming scene when he was minding Dawn in the cave, protecting her from Glory. Then, Willow charged into Glory's lair and did one really "key" thing -- she, a mortal witch, caused Glory some discomfort! Suddenly, Willow "does know" what others have gone through. And she's doing something about it. Interestingly enough, one of the characters had to tell Buffy to imagine her reaction if Glory had done to Dawn what she did to Tara before Buffy could realize Willow's intent to extract revenge. Although Tara isn't dead, Willow now "does possibly know."

I think you're onto something with Giles and the professor. I hate to think it, too.

I hope Head isn't going to go back to those Taster's Choice commercials. I'm sure he has better options at this point in his career, but I'm danged if I can imagine him as other than Giles.
[This message has been edited by Ron Pulliam (edited 02 May 2001).]

Ron:

I'm not sure why I suddenly felt compelled to reject the recent conception of Spike in that scene; I may get over it. Depends on where they take him next. But you're right, the bruises, his holding steady and keeping the sacred confidence in the face of Glory's bludgeonings certainly demonstrate he had the mettle to stay tight lipped in the interest of his devotion to Buffy/Dawn in the previous episode. I didn't seem to have a problem with that. What is my problem, exactly? I can't say, but something just didn't ring true there...something begged for disbelief in that, or so sayeth my gut. I need to watch the episode again. I think I'm just feeling some tension over the chip issue, Spike's vampire identity, his lack of soul...and his new capacity for love and affection, etc. Has he gotten to the point where the only thing which makes him a vampire is his butcher-blood diet? If attention is called to his character growth as a genuine phenomenon, perhaps owing to "chip conditioning" or something...then I'd pretty much buy anything they'd have him do. Until then, I might be periodically nagged by how all the various forces of his nature are reconciled. That said, you can't help but really like the guy, eh?

--Cooper
[This message has been edited by Cooper (edited 02 May 2001).]

More importantly, I don't think Spike has a CLUE what’s going on either. He THINKS all this aberrant behavior is due to a Buffy obsession--but I doubt it. He genuinely cared for Joyce ("she never treated me like a freak") and for Dawn, too. Very telltale, his reaching INSTINCTIVELY to comfort Dawn, and then pulling back. His instincts are changing. This is significant. And it's the chip. It won't give him a soul, but it will let more of William take over. And William was a passionate, empathetic sort of guy. Who fell for a woman who didn't love him and wrote poetry to her. And probably would have died for her. I think Buffy gets now that just as Anya is Anya, Spike is Spike, complete with bad choices and bad behavior. He's just not ALL bad.

Ron: re Buffy needing to be told that Willow would seek revenge--Buffy's never been very perceptive about others (Riley, Dawn). Spike has ALWAYS been--remember him scoffing at Giles & Buffy thinking Willow was ok after her breakup with Oz ("she's hanging on by a thread.") His speech to B/A "you'll never be friends…" I *knew* he'd be the one to realize.

I'd totally forgotten about Spike's pullback--when he moved in to supportively, affectionately lay his hand on Nibblet--until you mentioned it. It's key, and the clue I needed which should've prompted me to think beneath the surface. Apart from during his recent Buffy obsession, when has Spike demonstrated such vulnerability? I can't think of any other time except in this season's flashback episode, detailing "William's" pre-vampire identity. Beyond that, he's mostly groused about feelings of jealousy, being jilted or contemptuous, particularly of Harmony. But wow, for Spike to catch himself reaching out and snap his arm back like that really does suggest he's not sure where he, himself, stands--other than on wobbly, emotional sea-legs--and harbors some fear about how others will greet this "new" or buried thing in him that prompts seemingly unprecidented behaviors. That brief, telling little scene? Way better than Giles saying, "Why, Spike's a new man, or 'Vamp-man'. It's the chip, you see..." Or, he could still say that, I suppose, but it's nice that the allusion came frist...and perhaps there's more to come.

What can I say? Thanks for showing me the way. I really do need to cue that episode up again in a quiet room.

--Cooper

[This message has been edited by Cooper (edited 02 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Cooper (edited 02 May 2001).]

The whole notion that Giles may leave is disconcerting. I enjoy him. The
professor was given a larger part than anticipated. Can he take over for
Giles if he isn’t a slayer trainer? I think Cooper is on to something.
Also, I’m sure we haven’t seen the last of the Joel Grey character, although
his aura was one of malevolence, not Giles-goodness.

It is interesting how characters change within one episode. During the first half,
I was really getting tired of Dawn’s teenage angst/rebellion, woe-is-me-pout-
pout-double pout-I’m-just-a-key...yaddie, yaddie,etc. (However, that’s
my problem because she has good reason to be a little pissy.) I think Buffy’s
done a lot to show Dawn that she is there for her and loves her. Dawn’s concern
for the harm that has come to others redeemed her for me. Buffy mentioned
that if Dawn was taken away it could be foster care or dad. I need to ask if dad has
ever been on any of the shows? Ever been talked about? Has Buffy met him?
Is it possible if she’s never seen him that he could come back? (Is he the professor?)

I liked the questions Tara raised with Willow. (Am I just a phase as you once loved
Oz? Just a college thing?) I wondered about that too as she seemed totally
committed to Oz, although she rejected him when he returned.

Since Buffy will be on next year (if there are writers for scripts), I assume she’ll win
against Glory. We all must wonder what will happen to Dawn. Will she continue
to be the Key? Will the Key return to its own form and Dawn become really human?
(The human taste of Tara’s blood signaled Glory that she wasn’t the key.) Or will
we NOT see Dawn next year? Keeps us tuning in. (I’m becoming an addict!!)

Over l80 replies. Is a new thread in order?

quote:

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Originally posted by joan hue:
Hadn’t realized either that Spike is really uncomfortable or at least disconcerted by his own “chip-controlled” skin. Great insight, debi. And if that chip were ever removed? I’m speculating that at some time that will occur.

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I'll have to look at that again, too. I thought his reflexive drawback was because Dawn turned toward him very suddenly. Had she not done that, I do believe he'd have patted her head.

quote:

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The whole notion that Giles may leave is disconcerting. I enjoy him. The
professor was given a larger part than anticipated. Can he take over for
Giles if he isn’t a slayer trainer? I think Cooper is on to something.
Also, I’m sure we haven’t seen the last of the Joel Grey character, although
his aura was one of malevolence, not Giles-goodness.

---

The only safe answer is "Time will tell" -- but doesn't that make you want to smack me for saying it? : )

quote:

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It is interesting how characters change within one episode. During the first half,I was really getting tired of Dawn’s teenage angst/rebellion, woe-is-me-pout-
pout-double pout-I’m-just-a-key...yaddie, yaddie,etc. (However, that’s my problem because she has good reason to be a little pissy.) I think Buffy’s done a lot to show Dawn that she is there for her and loves her. Dawn’s concern for the harm that has come to others redeemed her for me..

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I, too, found that a bit repetitive of last week's show. Hadn't we resolved this "caring" issue enough to actually communicate. But...as we learned, Dawn had issues and Buffy had cause to be obtuse. And all sorts of misunderstanding and mayhem ensued as a result. I thought it was interesting that the rather slow pacing at the beginning suddenly picked up and became almost unrelentingly exciting.

quote:

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Buffy mentioned that if Dawn was taken away it could be foster care or dad. I need to ask if dad has ever been on any of the shows? Ever been talked about? Has Buffy met him?
Is it possible if she’s never seen him that he could come back? (Is he the professor?)?

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Yes, her Dad was in a sequence in the first season. He was played by Terence Knox, who you might recall was the star of the TV show "Tour of Duty." What I don't recall, however, is whether he was in a real-time sequence or a demon-induced sequence. At any rate, Buffy recognized him as her dad. I don't think he was in more than one show.

[This message has been edited by Ron Pulliam (edited 02 May 2001).]

Joan, I, too, wonder about Dawn's fate. Many possiblilities there.

As for Giles...I'm really gonna mess with all of your heads, now. I refer you back to last year's finale, Restless. Xander's dream: Giles & Spike swinging on the swingset. Spike says, "Giles is training me to be a Watcher."

Hee-hee.
[This message has been edited by debi (edited 03 May 2001).]

Okay, I'm thinking of kicking off that new thread. Should be up momentarily.

I expect it'll be called something like: "ReBuffed: A 'Wanker' in Beck-ville, the next Buffy generation."

In regard to Spike pulling back when Dawn turns to him... That, in itself, is interesting. Why would he care whether she sees him or not? Does he care about her reaction, or has she caused him to catch sight of himself, or both?

--Cooper
[This message has been edited by Cooper (edited 03 May 2001).]