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 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 4:30 PM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

Hi guys!

This is a post where all of you that detect a plagiarism by Mr. Horner can put it on. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy too much which some of his scores, but I think that to make up this list can be entertaining and funny!

...and Id love to know what im really hearing on his scores!

...and you can also put the self-plagiarism, as his mythical FOUR-NOTE tool or the "Sneakers-Bicetennial Man-Beautiful Mind-...." theme...

and please, dont make angry, this can be funny and instructive, because can help us to discover another great composers...

enjoy!


 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 4:33 PM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

TEXT BY
Scott M. Skelton "serlingng2"

ABOUT GLORY

" (...)
This score is rife with the kind of borrowings for which Horner has become notorious over the years. The main theme, heard prominently and developed throughout the "Call to Arms" and "Forming the Regiment" tracks (to name two), is a transparent reworking of the ten-note theme of Aaron Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man." In "Brave Words, Braver Deeds," a melody from the Offertorium movement of Gabriel Faure's Requiem is utilized without alteration, appearing twice. The "Burning the Town of Darien," track lifts a chunk from Ralph Vaughan Williams' sublime "Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis." The entire "Charging Fort Wagner" sequence is another transparent rejiggering by Horner, this time of the opening movement of Carl Orff's dramatic cantata "Carmina Burana." These are merely the ones I could identify. I'm no music historian; a sharper ear could likely pick out more.
No mention is given, either in the liner notes to the CD or in the credits for the film, of these other composers. At least in films like "Greystoke" and "Excalibur," the composers from whom the extra music got borrowed received a mention alongside that of the primary composer.
Read the credits of the old Errol Flynn film "Captain Blood" and you'll note that the composer, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, receives a title card that gives him credit for "musical arrangement," despite the fact that the music is almost entirely his. Korngold, pressed for time to meet his deadline, used a bit of Franz Liszt's music for a sword duel between Flynn and Basil Rathbone. The borrowed piece didn't amount to much, but Korngold insisted that he not be credited as composer, only as arranger. This was a man of integrity who wouldn't think of taking credit for another's work.
The circumstances surrounding the scoring of "Glory" are unknown to me. Perhaps Horner had a tough deadline. Perhaps the director fell in love with the "temp track" and asked Horner to emulate those pieces instead of coming up with something original. It really makes no difference, though. A man of integrity would have demanded that those other composers receive their due credit. If you're going to stand on the shoulders of giants, you should be man enough to admit it."

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 4:41 PM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

Willow (the heroic theme) is not similar but note-for-note identical to a phrase in Robert Schumann's Fourth Symphony.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 4:46 PM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

Honey, I Shurnk the Kids:

-AMARCORD, by Nino Rota.

James Horner lost a judgement on the tribunals, I heard.. is it true?

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 4:46 PM   
 By:   Mike S   (Member)

That sound you just heard was Thor's head exploding from all the thread URLs he'll have to copy and paste.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 5:28 PM   
 By:   Filmscorecollecter   (Member)

The trumpet motif is used in "Enemy at the Gates" and "Titanic" during tense and solemn moments.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 6:33 PM   
 By:   TerraEpon   (Member)

Willow (the heroic theme) is not similar but note-for-note identical to a phrase in Robert Schumann's Fourth Symphony.

Anyone who believes this is deaf.

(and it's the third symphony, BTW)

-Joshua

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 6:33 PM   
 By:   Melvin Stephens   (Member)

Very interesting this topic continues, concerning Mr. Horner. I've listened to Goldsmith, Williams, etc., and, detect their use of musical phrases; done over and over. Have noticed this with other film composers. Also, noticed recently, while liistening to a classical composer...hey!!! Williams, used that passage. But, excuse me, continue with Horner.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 6:38 PM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

We can open topics to post about other composers...

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 6:38 PM   
 By:   DeviantMan   (Member)

Detect plagiarism, the man wrote the book on the subject...
er...
uh...
rather...
wrote film scores based on that very colorful idiom of plagiarism masterfully crafted into effective and emotionally riviting works of art.

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 6:42 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

Very interesting this topic continues, concerning Mr. Horner. I've listened to Goldsmith, Williams, etc., and, detect their use of musical phrases; done over and over. Have noticed this with other film composers. Also, noticed recently, while liistening to a classical composer...hey!!! Williams, used that passage. But, excuse me, continue with Horner.

"It's called my style!"
-Bernie Herrmann

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 7:09 PM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

Very interesting this topic continues, concerning Mr. Horner. I've listened to Goldsmith, Williams, etc., and, detect their use of musical phrases; done over and over. Have noticed this with other film composers. Also, noticed recently, while liistening to a classical composer...hey!!! Williams, used that passage. But, excuse me, continue with Horner.

To be fair, John Williams reused one of his themes for Towering Inferno in Earthquake (or was it vise versa?). And whenever a new Star Wars came out, one of the tracks wound up being nearly re-used in another score (ROTS music is in WOTW, etc.).

I guess Horner's re-use was just a lot more blantant and covered a wider variety of composers.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 7:33 PM   
 By:   Kev McGann   (Member)

Yeah, sure he steals, borrows, whatever.. maybe more than other composers... BUT !!!
he also has a distinctive voice of his own!
When you hear a movie scored by Horner you know it's his style (unless it's Debney/McNeely scoring it instead).
I remember when he burst onto the scene years ago, that rush you got when you heard that style (Wolf Jump from Natty Gann will always give me goosebumps when I hear it) was incredible.
I know he lost a lot of listeners with constant re-use, borrowings and some sub-standard drony scores, but I'm glad I stuck with him and still enjoy most of his stuff and still look forward to his future scores. There are a lot of composers, I'm sure, who would kill to possess as distinctive a voice of their own, such as Horner has.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 7:43 PM   
 By:   Jaquandor   (Member)

Anyone who believes this is deaf.

(and it's the third symphony, BTW)


Actually, no, they are not. The second part of the heroic "Willow" theme (not the lyric theme that accompanies the film's opening credits, but the swashbuckling theme that accompanies much of Val Kilmer's derring-do) is simply identical to the passage in the Schumann. My general stance on accusations of film composer "borrowing" is strong skepticism, but even I can't deny this one. (Strangely, though, I think that the passage works better in the Willow theme than in the Schumann symphony!)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 7:50 PM   
 By:   Kev McGann   (Member)

Okay, I'll play..
obviously there is the Romeo & Juliet/Prokoviev quote used at the beginning of Stealing the Enterprise (Star Trek 3).
I also remember hearing the music when Virgil runs around the lab freely, after performing well (in Project X) in Prokoviev's Cinderella (Fairy Godmother/Winter..from about 1'30 in).
Also, a bit in Land Before Time is nicked from a Bartok piece.

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 7:58 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

I'd like to make a case for there being NO SUCH THING as Self-Plagiarism.

One cannot steal from oneself.

Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else's work and passing it off as one's own.

Self-plagiarism" isn't, therefore, a possibility. One doesn't take one's own work and pass it off as one's work. That's redundant and impossible.

I know an argument can be made for this secondary definition of "plagiarize": "Present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source," but I'd argue that the intent was not to have that applied to one's own work.

I think "self-referencing" is a better description of what Horner does (and he's not alone, by any means)when he reuses his own material.

Hey! It's just a suggestion!

big grin

 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 8:02 PM   
 By:   Moonie   (Member)

I'd like to make a case for there being NO SUCH THING as Self-Plagiarism.

One cannot steal from oneself.

Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else's work and passing it off as one's own.

"Self-plagiarism" isn't, therefore, a possibility. One doesn't take one's own work and pass it off as one's work. That's redundant and impossible.

Perhaps "self-referencing" is best.




And alot of todays and yesterdays composers reuse their music in their other scores, thats where their style comes from.
sd

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 26, 2005 - 8:06 PM   
 By:   Morricone   (Member)

I thought Kubrick's use of Khachaturian's Adagio from the Gayanne Ballet Suite in 2001 was unusual. Not so when it returned as the "main title" of ALIENS.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 2:48 AM   
 By:   markgso   (Member)

Honey, I Shurnk the Kids:

-AMARCORD, by Nino Rota.

James Horner lost a judgement on the tribunals, I heard.. is it true?


not to mention Raymond Scott's 'Powerhouse' (the jazzy, scampering material that sounds like manic Mancini). Disney settled with both estates, as I understand. It was their temp, after all. Basically, just like licensing it, only after the fact.

He 'rejiggers' quite closely the openning theme from Dave Grusin's 'Goonies' too...

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 2:53 AM   
 By:   markgso   (Member)

Here's one no one ever mentions:

Arvo Part's 'Fratres' in Sneakers (Cosmo's theme)

probably because everyone assumes it's just another 'rejiggering' of the Vaughn Williams Tallis Fantasia, or the similarly moody low string writing from the Largo of Shostakovich's 5th that he so often likes to mess with, often hand-in-hand with Khatchaturian's Gayaneh Adagio wink

 
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